Greenville SC Developments

[Kerry]

I was spending a little time looking at urban developments in other cities and found this web site highlighting some of the development taking place in Greenville, mostly downtown and downtown adjacent.  Very impressive.  I first went to Greenville back in April and have been back a few times since.  I was blown away how nice it is.  Downtown shopping is vibrant, plenty of outdoor dining options, ample number of hotels, impressive parks, active night-life, bike share system, and a very lively public realm.

https://upstatebusinessjournal.com/the-top-21-cre-projects-in-greenville/

[Jagsdrew]

Greenville's growth is insane the last few years.

Went there for work and was talking with a few locals last June and they said in the last 5 years, it's changed so much.  One pointed out that some of the success has to do with how big Atlanta has grown that Greenville has benefited. But overall, the city has done a great job of master planning to ensure everywhere in downtown interweaves with each other.

[Kerry]

Greenville's growth is insane the last few years.

Went there for work and was talking with a few locals last June and they said in the last 5 years, it's changed so much.  One pointed out that some of the success has to do with how big Atlanta has grown that Greenville has benefited. But overall, the city has done a great job of master planning to ensure everywhere in downtown interweaves with each other.

As near as I can tell, Greenville benefits from 3 primary components.

Relative location: situated centrally between Atlanta and Charlotte with easy access to Smokey Mountains, Ashville, Columbia, and Charleston.

Natural Beauty:  Downtown has a beautiful waterfall/river and the surrounding area is very scenic with many South and North Carolina state parks near by as well as the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Civic Leadership:  It take more than location and beauty, it take a civic leadership that can exploit the natural assets and combine them with good urban design and placemaking.  Greenville gets an A+ in this category.

I can't speak for the business community but it seems they have bought into a vibrant city center and played their part.  Not saying they don't exist but I don't remember seeing large office parks in the suburban fringe like Jax has at Butler Blvd, Gate Parkway, and around the Avenues.

[thelakelander]

Civic Leadership:  It take more than location and beauty, it take a civic leadership that can exploit the natural assets and combine them with good urban design and placemaking.  Greenville gets an A+ in this category.

I agree here. Greenville has done an excellent job in this category with its downtown area.

I can't speak for the business community but it seems they have bought into a vibrant city center and played their part.  Not saying they don't exist but I don't remember seeing large office parks in the suburban fringe like Jax has at Butler Blvd, Gate Parkway, and around the Avenues.

They exist. As a whole, it's a pretty sprawly, low density community. Just take a look at Google Earth and streetview a couple of places outside of the core of the city if you're not familiar with them. Pretty much everything along I-385, I-185 and I-85 is the same type of sprawl you'll find in most of the country.

[MusicMan]

I grew up in Spartanburg, Greenville's "twin city."  It's the underachieving twin, I can tell you that. 

Greenville is special, It seems to have gotten most everything right. 

Spartanburg is just OK, but still a very nice small Southern city.  That part of SC is really pretty, year round.

[jaxlongtimer]

When I visited Greenville recently, I noted that, unlike Jacksonville, they have renovated/repurposed many of their historic structures, built an active and accessible street-scape with unbroken rows of retail and restaurants, maximized green space on their waterfront and optimized using the waterfront as an attraction and focal point.  Considering their waterfront is mainly a mountain stream, they have done amazing things to get the most out of it.  The green space actually runs for quite a distance beyond the downtown creating their own version of an Emerald Trail.  Looks like they also run a free trolley up and down the main street.

Notably absent:  Any mega-projects like Shad's Lot J or Shipyards, an NFL stadium, autonomous vehicles running on a former Skyway track, acres of vacant lots or mega garages on every corner  .

Imagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.

[vicupstate]

I grew up in Spartanburg, Greenville's "twin city."  It's the underachieving twin, I can tell you that. 

Greenville is special, It seems to have gotten most everything right. 

Spartanburg is just OK, but still a very nice small Southern city.  That part of SC is really pretty, year round.

Not sure how long it has been since you were there, but Spartanburg has made a lot of strides in the last ten years and especially the last five.  The old Montgomery building which is Spartanburg's version of the Laura Trio has been completely renovated now. There is a new AC Hotel that is the 'counter tower' to the Denny's building.  Lots of other base hits as well.  They have created some impressive trails systems too.     

[vicupstate]

Imagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.

That is EXACTLY what the difference is.

It isn't consolidation or any other lame excuse. We have had the same mayor for 24 years and he is running unopposed again in two weeks for another term.  He was mentored in high school by the mayor that created the plan that initiated the transformation in DT Greenville. He has none of the powers Curry has, as he is just one of seven votes on council. He can't veto anything and he can't appoint anyone to anything by himself. But he doesn't lead by brute force and legislated power like #CorruptCurry. He explains the vision, gets buy in and executes.  He will take a tough vote when required, but mostly can get a broad consensus at decision time. He is well connected with the business community and they trust him. He understands urban design, but is approachable and can break out the benefits for those less knowledgeable.  Private-Public Partnership are common for big projects but public money is only spent on public assets like plazas and garages. Continuity is also present at the city staff level. The Economic Development head has been at the helm close to 30 years. She could easily have left for a bigger pond but has made her career in Greenville.   

There is a Master Plan and Design Guidelines and they are updated regularly and they aren't just window dressing. Party politics and patronage are not present to gum up the works either, even though council is elected by party.     

[Kerry]

Imagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.

That is EXACTLY what the difference is.

It isn't consolidation or any other lame excuse. We have had the same mayor for 24 years and he is running unopposed again in two weeks for another term.  He was mentored in high school by the mayor that created the plan that initiated the transformation in DT Greenville. He has none of the powers Curry has, as he is just one of seven votes on council. He can't veto anything and he can't appoint anyone to anything by himself. But he doesn't lead by brute force and legislated power like #CorruptCurry. He explains the vision, gets buy in and executes.  He will take a tough vote when required, but mostly can get a broad consensus at decision time. He is well connected with the business community and they trust him. He understands urban design, but is approachable and can break out the benefits for those less knowledgeable.  Private-Public Partnership are common for big projects but public money is only spent on public assets like plazas and garages. Continuity is also present at the city staff level. The Economic Development head has been at the helm close to 30 years. She could easily have left for a bigger pond but has made her career in Greenville.   

There is a Master Plan and Design Guidelines and they are updated regularly and they aren't just window dressing. Party politics and patronage are not present to gum up the works either, even though council is elected by party.     

Consolidation is the exact reason why we don't have a local government structure that makes this possible here.  News4Jax has had several segments on it lately.

[vicupstate]

^^ Then explain Charlotte, Nashville, Indianapolis.   

Believe it or not, JAX wasn't that far behind those cities in the late '90's. Mayor Delaney wasn't perfect and there was still too much demolition, but a lot of things were going right DT. There was some serious momentum. Then the recession hit and stalled out the momentum. Then the mayors that followed had no real interest or competence in the subject matter or in leadership generally.  Brown seemed to try but was a bit naive and was totally incapacitated by the Republican Mafia.         

[Tacachale]

Imagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.

That is EXACTLY what the difference is.

It isn't consolidation or any other lame excuse. We have had the same mayor for 24 years and he is running unopposed again in two weeks for another term.  He was mentored in high school by the mayor that created the plan that initiated the transformation in DT Greenville. He has none of the powers Curry has, as he is just one of seven votes on council. He can't veto anything and he can't appoint anyone to anything by himself. But he doesn't lead by brute force and legislated power like #CorruptCurry. He explains the vision, gets buy in and executes.  He will take a tough vote when required, but mostly can get a broad consensus at decision time. He is well connected with the business community and they trust him. He understands urban design, but is approachable and can break out the benefits for those less knowledgeable.  Private-Public Partnership are common for big projects but public money is only spent on public assets like plazas and garages. Continuity is also present at the city staff level. The Economic Development head has been at the helm close to 30 years. She could easily have left for a bigger pond but has made her career in Greenville.   

There is a Master Plan and Design Guidelines and they are updated regularly and they aren't just window dressing. Party politics and patronage are not present to gum up the works either, even though council is elected by party.     

Consolidation is the exact reason why we don't have a local government structure that makes this possible here.  News4Jax has had several segments on it lately.

Consolidation is the reason we don't have a government structure like the Central Florida cities that annexed high growth suburban land while leaving out distressed areas, or like Miami, which has a two tiered government that involves a county mayor that's more powerful than the city mayor, or like Orlando which has a combination of the two. There are plenty of consolidated cities with thriving downtowns - everything from Indianapolis to Nashville to New York. I don't know what News4Jax is really saying, but if they're blaming consolidation for Downtown's woes, they're wrong.

[Kerry]

So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?

[Tacachale]

So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?

I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.

[vicupstate]

So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?

I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.

I would agree with that. Continuity clearly played a part in Charleston's revival as well. One mayor from 1975 to 2015. As much as he was terrible as Governor, Pat McCrory was Charlotte's longest serving mayor ever (14 years) when it's DT morphed from an office park into a genuinely successful urban core. 

All of that said, I believe if Matt Carllucci and Aubrey Moran had won their respective Mayor's races, JAX would be a lot further along in reviving its core.     

[Kerry]

So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?

I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.

And you don't see those problems as a direct result of Consolidation?

Charlotte and Greenville both have City Managers.