Market-rate rentals a growing option Downtown

[thelakelander]

Using their definition of downtown to count housing, there are already 3 grocery stores.  How many more are desired?

Pretty much. Despite the expansion of DT's borders, most still recognize downtown as the core of the Northbank. No matter what takes place at the stadium, Southbank or Brooklyn, it sets the visual tone, perception and image of downtown being vibrant or dead. The two grocery stores (what is the third one?) either fall outside of that boundary (Fresh Market) or happen to be located in no-man's land (Harvey's). Until something opens between Broad and Liberty and south of Church or so, you're likely going to hear people still complaining about not having a grocery store.

Earlier in this thread, I asked what are we doing to take advantage of the 80,000 already present in the urban core. The grocery store situation is a prime example of a quick fix that is still ignored. Fresh Market opened in Brooklyn a few years ago to serve that 80,000. Because we have no vision or plan, that center ended up being a lot more suburban than it had to be. Nevertheless, a grocery store did open right across the street from a skyway maintenance yard right across the street. It has been known that some form of commercial development was going to take place on the Brooklyn Station site for at least a decade or more now. That's more than enough time to figure out how to get, fund and implement a Skyway stop in Brooklyn. Assuming we had an urban circulator transit system that operated during the weekends, that one stop alone would directly tie most Northbank and Southbank residents and office workers with a grocery store without the need of an individual having to drive in a car. It's not taking advantage of the little things like this that ultimately hold DT Jax from creating synergy to speed up market rate revitalization.

[vicupstate]

DT Greenville draws across the whole city because that is the restaurant/entertainment/leisure district for the whole city. There aren't many 5 Points/San Marco style districts to compete against DT.

The State/Union traffic is commuters going to work or just crossing thru to get to the other side of the river. They aren't on their way to buy groceries or going out for the evening.  A convenience store or something of that nature could capture some business, but I don't see much else. Plus the one-way freeway nature of the streets won't experience walkablity until that changes.     

Why would someone in Riverside drive past the Fresh Market in Brooklyn, to shop at a similar place in the Northbank?

I could see someone in San Marco driving to a Fresh Market on the Nbank but probably not once the Publix is built in San Marco. 

[Steve]

DT Greenville draws across the whole city because that is the restaurant/entertainment/leisure district for the whole city. There aren't many 5 Points/San Marco style districts to compete against DT.

The State/Union traffic is commuters going to work or just crossing thru to get to the other side of the river. They aren't on their way to buy groceries or going out for the evening.  A convenience store or something of that nature could capture some business, but I don't see much else. Plus the one-way freeway nature of the streets won't experience walkablity until that changes.     

Why would someone in Riverside drive past the Fresh Market in Brooklyn, to shop at a similar place in the Northbank?

I could see someone in San Marco driving to a Fresh Market on the Nbank but probably not once the Publix is built in San Marco. 

State and Union, if done right, could be dramatically nicer than it is today. Not many roads have the traffic count that they do combined.

In terms of a grocery store, to a degree I see your point. With Fresh Market in Brooklyn and assuming the Publix does happen in San Marco, then a downtown grocery store likely only serves the Northbank and Springfield, perhaps southern Brentwood (though I'd think someone on 25th street would go to Gateway). But, there's a huge opportunity for a Walgreens or CVS. If that existed, then at least people who needed a couple things had a place to go that they could walk to vs. driving out of downtown.

[thelakelander]

DT Greenville draws across the whole city because that is the restaurant/entertainment/leisure district for the whole city. There aren't many 5 Points/San Marco style districts to compete against DT.

I think you're getting caught up on specific type of retail and also overlooking market size. In Jax, we have Brooklyn as the perfect example. Riverside Avenue is a "commuter" corridor, just like Atlantic, Beach and Blanding. It just happens to fall within what the DIA defines as downtown. Brooklyn Station isn't successful because of downtown or Brooklyn's population. It's also not the restaurant/entertainment/leisure district for the whole city (when you get Jax's size, you'll always have multiple districts as opposed to one). It's successful because it is positioned to serve a specific trade area for tenants requiring certain design criteria not easily found or readily available in other parts of said trade area. It doesn't really matter if the population being exposed happens to be commuters, those who work specifically in downtown or people living nearby.

The State/Union traffic is commuters going to work or just crossing thru to get to the other side of the river. They aren't on their way to buy groceries or going out for the evening.  A convenience store or something of that nature could capture some business, but I don't see much else. Plus the one-way freeway nature of the streets won't experience walkablity until that changes.

From personal experience over the years of parking next to FSJC and walking to my old DT Jax office location on Forsyth Street to avoid paying for parking, the streets actually already have more pedestrian traffic than most of downtown. However, they do suffer from poor land use planning and long term incremental demolition of mixed-use building stock. However, they're no different from a SW 7th/8th Street pair in Miami, a Tampa St/Florida Ave pair in Tampa or Fannin/San Jacinto Street pair in Houston. All are one-way pairs carrying large volumes of crosstown traffic yet are examples of corridors where there are commercial opportunities. State and Union are not different, if what is perceived as a negative (one-way and high auto traffic) is viewed as a positive (centralized access and high visibility). They all offer the type of traffic counts that are attractive to a diverse range of commercial uses. However, what makes or breaks the walkability isn't necessarily the traffic count. It's the policies that drive or prohibit pedestrian scale mix of uses and the ability to cross them safely.
     

Why would someone in Riverside drive past the Fresh Market in Brooklyn, to shop at a similar place in the Northbank?

I could see someone in San Marco driving to a Fresh Market on the Nortbank but probably not once the Publix is built in San Marco.

Why would someone drive past Publix in Riverside to shop at Fresh Market in Brooklyn? Why do some drive miles to get gas at a Dailys when a Race Trac could be right around the corner? Why do some drive pass multiple locations of Sonnys BBQ to get Jenkins BBQ on State & Union? I don't think we can answer those types of questions for people. Consumers make personal decisions for a variety of reasons. However, what isn't questionable is the high traffic counts, centralized access, visibility and what roles these characteristics play into retail site selection. What I'm saying is use these market rate truths to your advantage.

Also, I tend to prefer not to characterize the specific types of businesses that make up a successful commercial district. I don't believe successful retail strips have to equate to being a restaurant/entertainment clusters or town center style mix of tenants. Perhaps it is places like CVS, ALDI, 7-Elevens, etc., mixed with local businesses like dry cleaners, sandwich shops and an occasional Waffle House, McDonalds, clothing boutique or two that cater to the surrounding population and commuting traffic being funneled through the area. That's essentially what SW 8th is in Miami. Local land use policies just tend to make those corridors more pedestrian scale. So if Walgreens or Burger King wants to come....they can. However, they'll be designed in a manner where there's not a surface parking lot between the building and the street or the building's neighbors.

 

[thelakelander]

State and Union, if done right, could be dramatically nicer than it is today. Not many roads have the traffic count that they do combined.

In terms of a grocery store, to a degree I see your point. With Fresh Market in Brooklyn and assuming the Publix does happen in San Marco, then a downtown grocery store likely only serves the Northbank and Springfield, perhaps southern Brentwood (though I'd think someone on 25th street would go to Gateway). But, there's a huge opportunity for a Walgreens or CVS. If that existed, then at least people who needed a couple things had a place to go that they could walk to vs. driving out of downtown.

But even with the grocery example, everything isn't set in stone. Harvey's on Union Street doesn't survive on Northbank consumers alone. Neither does the McDonald's on State. Both would die if placed on Monroe Street in the heart of the Northbank (in fact, both did once have locations on Monroe in the heart of the Northbank and either moved to their present location or outright closed). They pull from commuters and residents not only living in DT, Springfield, etc. but also the Eastside, Durkeeville, New Town, etc. Trips are made for a variety of reasons. I have a Publix down the street from me but depending on what I need at a specific time and what's available along the route of that particular trip, I'll stop in competing chains or other Publix locations when they accommodate my personal schedule more efficiently. I love Boiling Crawfish and Soul Food Bistro. Both have locations on both sides of the river. I still end up at all of the locations, depending on if I happen to be in a particular area for another reason and decide to grab a bite to eat during that particular trip. I believe it would do us well to start viewing State and Union in a different light. They aren't negatives.

[Pastor Eric Wester]

Three words in your post really lay out the challenges:  policy, direction, vision. In spite of the remaining legacy assets (which give us a starting point for CBD multi-purpose redevelopment) and the "start and stop" short flurries of promised activity (e.g. new convention center, Lot J, Berkman II), we have skipped the foundational prerequisites.

Without slowing down any current  residential projects underway and emerging (San Marco/First Presbyterian letter of intent) , could the DIA, commencing under new leadership, at least frame and articulate two of these: direction and vision?  Policy will probably have to be produced through other channels.  But I think you nailed it Lake: vision, direction, policy. Thanks!

[bl8jaxnative]

Pretty much. Despite the expansion of DT's borders, most still recognize downtown as the core of the Northbank.

I'm not sure what group you have in mind by "most people".   

Most people in the region think of places like Springfield and Riverside downtown.   

Either way in an age when Wal-mart will deliver groceries to your door, I don't see wisdom in dwelling on the notion that a grocery at just the right corner serving just the right demographic is a missing piece of the puzzle. 

[thelakelander]

Either way in an age when Wal-mart will deliver groceries to your door, I don't see wisdom in dwelling on the notion that a grocery at just the right corner serving just the right demographic is a missing piece of the puzzle.

The missing ingredient is foot traffic or doing things in a way to generate it consistently. It's not about what we personally see or don't see, in terms of specific business uses. It's about coordinating public policy with the market to create a built environment where continuous blocks of economic opportunity can flourish in a pedestrian scale environment. Create  the traffic and people way smarter than you and me in the businesses that they're involved in will invest in opportunities and enterprises that the market can support. With the correct public policies in place, the investments they make will incrementally build the physical environment that the community envisions. If Jax desires a walkable one for select areas (in the case of DT and the urban core), public policy should be crafted to guide things to that outcome. If walkability isn't important, just keep things status quo and don't get too sensitive about being questioned about being one of the few major cities with a sleepy central business district at nights and on weekends. Either way, Jax has total control over the ultimate outcome.

[Kerry]

DT Greenville draws across the whole city because that is the restaurant/entertainment/leisure district for the whole city. There aren't many 5 Points/San Marco style districts to compete against DT.

We went to Greenville this weekend for a quick get away.  I've only been there twice but I can't get over how nice their urban core is.  The amount of downtown housing is staggering, with lots more under construction spreading north of downtown.  Seeing that it has taken them 30 years to get where they are today I've basically given up on Jax.  I'll be long dead before Jax is even close to Greenville's level of walkable urbanism.

[Adam White]

Either way in an age when Wal-mart will deliver groceries to your door, I don't see wisdom in dwelling on the notion that a grocery at just the right corner serving just the right demographic is a missing piece of the puzzle.

In an age where catastrophic climate change is a reality, the luxury of having your groceries delivered (or even driving to the grocery store) is indefensible and hopefully something that will disappear.

Of course, some people will always be too lazy to walk to their local* grocery store.

*when the local store is within reasonable walking distance, of course.

[Tacachale]

DT Greenville draws across the whole city because that is the restaurant/entertainment/leisure district for the whole city. There aren't many 5 Points/San Marco style districts to compete against DT.

We went to Greenville this weekend for a quick get away.  I've only been there twice but I can't get over how nice their urban core is.  The amount of downtown housing is staggering, with lots more under construction spreading north of downtown.  Seeing that it has taken them 30 years to get where they are today I've basically given up on Jax.  I'll be long dead before Jax is even close to Greenville's level of walkable urbanism.

Because you were always such a cheerleader for Jax before.

[thelakelander]

DT Greenville draws across the whole city because that is the restaurant/entertainment/leisure district for the whole city. There aren't many 5 Points/San Marco style districts to compete against DT.

We went to Greenville this weekend for a quick get away.  I've only been there twice but I can't get over how nice their urban core is.  The amount of downtown housing is staggering, with lots more under construction spreading north of downtown.  Seeing that it has taken them 30 years to get where they are today I've basically given up on Jax.  I'll be long dead before Jax is even close to Greenville's level of walkable urbanism.

LOL, we're already 65 to 70 years to get to the point of where we've destroyed enough in the name of revitalization to get to where we're at today. In reality, DT Jax probably has witnessed more investment than Greenville over that time period but its spread out across a four square mile area, so we're not getting the synergy or resulting foot traffic stimulated through the clustering of said investments. With that in mind, if we take advantage of what's already in place and currently coming online by focusing on select few infill/adaptive reuse sites, it won't take 30 years to get the "walkable urbanism" that Greenville has.

[Kerry]

It isn't even close.  Greenville has the St Johns Town Center in an actual town center, and it isn't surrounded by parking lots.  The number of people on the street was staggering (downtown residents, area residents, tourist, and convention goers all lumped together in one location).  What was missing?  The homeless.  I maybe saw 3 or 4 and they were all walking - not loitering.

[thelakelander]

^I'm pretty familiar with DT Greenville and the how clustering can make scenes look dramatically different. Unfortunately, the importance of the concept is still not fully embraced on the 4th floor.

[Kerry]

I was reading some of the history of Greenville resurgence and here is the key - in 1989 the Mayor said Greenville needs to stop focusing on companies and start focusing on humans.  That is a huge shift in mentality and is the exact opposite of what Jax does.  All of our funds and efforts go to attracting corporations or subsidizing their operations.  If we spent just a fraction of our money on parks, venues, and housing we would be much further along.  For example, all the land in Brooklyn between Riverside and the river is reserved for corporations.  It should be exclusively reserved for residential (ideally fronting Riverside) with recreational open space on the riverbank.