Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019

[Steve]

^Compared to other NFL franchises, I think the Jags are reasonably transparent.

If you watched State of the Franchise, Lamping never said that Lot J was apples-to-apples to Ballpark Village or the Power & Light District in terms of surrounding uses or proximity to the CBD. He simply said (I'm paraphrasing here), "we haven't completed designs yet, here's what it could look like based on office and residential uses at other Cordish developments."

I don't think there was anything at all super manipulative today.

The Jags directly stated, "we want to pad our local revenue by adding complimenting uses near the stadium."

For the Jags, it's a sound strategy that's being repeated all over the country by professional sports franchises, and Cordish is a good partner with a good track record.

For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event.

It's a lost opportunity for the Jags, a pain point for event attendees, and to Lamping's point, no one else is exactly doing anything in the last couple of years to serve that captive audience.

And in a vehicle centric city like Jacksonville without an urban circulator extending to the sports complex, if we're going to say that a Lot J development is too far away from the CBD to contribute toward a vibrant urban core, I think it's also fair to say in turn that the central core is too far from the sports complex to be the primary pregame and postgame spot. People aren't going to park twice or walk three miles round trip to grab a drink at Volstead after a Suns game.

Lamping's correct when he says that Lot J will add jobs, residents, and revenue to downtown Jacksonville, even if the impact on the true urban core is probably negligent.

And in a vacuum, even though I'd prefer it at the Courthouse site, I think a Live! venue would be a really fun, really useful addition to the sports complex.

I've got zero problem with the Jags for pushing for a project that's in their best interests, even if the barbell theory and residual effects to the west are overstated.

At the end of the day, if there's a good guy or a bad guy here, it's going to be the mayor and City Council who have been elected to control the pursestrings and act in the best interests of the city.

We can't have everything, and Lot J will come with a very real opportunity cost.

It's the city's ultimate responsibility to make the choices that best align with of our ultimate goals (which is why a master plan would be nice), and to be transparent with the public about what led to those decisions.

I might be in the minority here, but Lamping impressed me today. He praised the city for making it a very successful year for the Jags. He presented hard evidence that Daily's Place is bringing new people and new revenue ($26 million) to the sports complex. There were zero threats about relocation or London, and Khan and Lamping openly expressed a desire to make a lease extension possible through cost-effective improvements to the stadium rather than a full replacement. And Lamping was even very honest about how adding JEA at Lot J would have ultimately been a zero-sum game that wouldn't really benefit downtown.

They're shrewd businessmen who are perfectly willing to play the subsidy game, but compared to what else is out there, I kind of appreciate them.

Doesn't mean handing them a convention center or over-subsidizing their residential developments is the right move, but that will ultimately be on our elected officials for caving, not the Jags for asking.

Well said.

I'm still not sure I think they "get it" in terms of development and how well it will spill out and generate other development, but hey, don't blame them for asking.

In addition, I thought their stadium renovation timeline discussion was actually realistic - start the discussion during Curry's admin (4 years) then develop after that.

[RatTownRyan]

I know there is another thread for this subject but, what is the deal with the Doro district? I haven't heard any progress in a while. Are they waiting to hear if Lot J is going to happen. Or is their development or lack there of, completely separate from the jaguars  grand plans.

[jaxjags]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

[thelakelander]

I doubt it would be successful without the traffic expressway removal would provide. Right now, there's not enough consistent activity there for anything to be open seven days and nights a week. If so, they would have broke ground on it years ago.

[Kerry]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?

[Adam White]

No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

Where's the irony? I don't get it.

[Adam White]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?

I think I get your point and I agree. Many would argue that supply follows demand - if there were sufficient demand, someone would have tapped into it. If there's nothing there, it would seem that no one is willing to take the risk based on the conditions. Some wealthy white knight coming in and building something (with taxpayer money to boot) isn't a guarantee of success.

[minder]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?

Teams have realised they can make more money than simply just on gameday. Ballpark Village, Titletown, Arlington Texas, the Battery are recent examples of that.

[Steve]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?

Like Intuition?

Or are you talking about building from scratch? I'd say the reason there is government controlled land....like all of it.

[Tacachale]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?

The baseball grounds, arena, amphitheater, and Intuition are all less than 20 years old.

[thelakelander]

It's pretty obvious the Live! and hotel components of their plan would struggle without more traffic in the area. Hence, the expressway removal plan. Direct access and visibility to daily through traffic that has nothing to do with special events is needed to support these businesses on none event days.

[jaxjags]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?

Tell me where. Most of the land in the area is owned by the city. So where. Lot J is owned by the city.

[Ken_FSU]

From Ken:

"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."

Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.

Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn  - the other end of the barbell.

So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?

1) The sports complex of 2019 is very, very different than the sports complex of 1999. New arena, new baseball stadium, new ampitheater, tons of stadium renovations, more programming, better tenants.

2) Jacksonville has grown leaps and bounds in terms of population and buying power in the last 20 years.

3) Just like festiival marketplaces were all the rage 30 years ago, the stadium adjacent entertainment-complex-in-a-box didn't really become a thing until the early 2010s when Ballpark Village proved successful and Cordish started replicating it in places like Philadelphia and Arlington.

4) No one before Shad Khan has had the economic and political swing to suggest a $500 million publicly-subsidized development, with a 3,000 spot parking garage, on city-owned land next to the stadium.

It's pretty obvious the Live! and hotel components of their plan would struggle without more traffic in the area. Hence, the expressway removal plan. Direct access and visibility to daily through traffic that has nothing to do with special events is needed to support these businesses on none event days.

The frustrating thing to me is that we've essentially got a central business district that is vibrant and lively during the day, and a ghost town at night. And we've got a sports complex that is essentially a ghost town during the day, and vibrant and lively at night. It feels like if we took this Lot J development and shifted the entire thing somewhere in the middle (to the Courthouse site or western Shipyards adjacent to Berkman II), it would be close enough to both to have positive externalities on the CBD and the sports complex. It's walkable for both the downtown lunch crowd or the evening events crowd, and instead of essentially having to subsidize the creation of a new residential and office daytime market at the sports complex to support it (with corresponding parking infrastructure), you're taking advantage of the the one that's already built-in.

Plus you're riverfront, instead of asphalt-front.

[Snufflee]

^^ This is Jacksonville.. Logic need not apply.

[thelakelander]

1) The sports complex of 2019 is very, very different than the sports complex of 1999. New arena, new baseball stadium, new ampitheater, tons of stadium renovations, more programming, better tenants.

2) Jacksonville has grown leaps and bounds in terms of population and buying power in the last 20 years.

3) Just like festiival marketplaces were all the rage 30 years ago, the stadium adjacent entertainment-complex-in-a-box didn't really become a thing until the early 2010s when Ballpark Village proved successful and Cordish started replicating it in places like Philadelphia and Arlington.

4) No one before Shad Khan has had the economic and political swing to suggest a $500 million publicly-subsidized development, with a 3,000 spot parking garage, on city-owned land next to the stadium.

When I first arrived in Jax back in 2003, I thought the placement of the arena and baseball grounds were missed opportunities. By that time, several cities had used new arenas and ballparks in locations closer to their CBD cores and walkable areas with older buildings and storefronts as a way to anchor revitalization efforts. Baltimore, Memphis, Cleveland, Detroit, etc. all come to mind. It was even taking place in cities like Montgomery and Grand Rapids. For whatever reason, we not only missed that 1990s boat, we also razed half the buildings like what IAW is in now that could have been used for restaurants, clubs, etc.

It's pretty obvious the Live! and hotel components of their plan would struggle without more traffic in the area. Hence, the expressway removal plan. Direct access and visibility to daily through traffic that has nothing to do with special events is needed to support these businesses on none event days.

The frustrating thing to me is that we've essentially got a central business district that is vibrant and lively during the day, and a ghost town at night. And we've got a sports complex that is essentially a ghost town during the day, and vibrant and lively at night. It feels like if we took this Lot J development and shifted the entire thing somewhere in the middle (to the Courthouse site or western Shipyards adjacent to Berkman II), it would be close enough to both to have positive externalities on the CBD and the sports complex. It's walkable for both the downtown lunch crowd or the evening events crowd, and instead of essentially having to subsidize the creation of a new residential and office daytime market at the sports complex to support it (with corresponding parking infrastructure), you're taking advantage of the the one that's already built-in.

Plus you're riverfront, instead of asphalt-front.

Not much we could have done with stadium placement but we did have an opportunity with the other facilities. However, none of that would eliminated the Jags from wanting to make money around the stadium. With that said, this Lot J thing isn't as big as I initially thought. There should be room for it to co-exist with downtown. We just need leaders that under urban planning, placemaking and the concept of clustering complementing development within a compact pedestrian centric setting.