Landing To Be Razed, Are Taxpayers Screwed?

[DrQue]

I am at a complete loss on this. How can the city even fathom blowing $18mm with no real return?

What about the opportunity cost of having this waterfront land off the tax rolls?

Also the currents downtown are too strong to encourage casual kayaking etc.

[jaxlongtimer]

Nate Monroe picks up on Lake's editorial here.  Lots of good questions raised about the efficacy of this deal.

Only thing he left out was Curry's 2015 quote when he ran against Alvin Brown in which he questioned Brown spending about $12 million on the Landing by saying the money would be better spent on kids programs.  So, does that also apply to spending $18 million now?

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190222/nate-monroe-sleimans-exit-from-landing-offers-promise---and-peril

[vicupstate]

The article illustrates that this issue is really just a symptom of a larger problem. The city is run by a cliche of people that call all the shots. That wouldn't be terrible or particularly unique, except that in JAX's case they are not susceptible to political pressure, nor are they very competent. They do it for the sake of power alone, without much thought to the broader end results.

[acme54321]

I am at a complete loss on this. How can the city even fathom blowing $18mm with no real return?

What about the opportunity cost of having this waterfront land off the tax rolls?

Also the currents downtown are too strong to encourage casual kayaking etc.

Is it currently on the tax rolls? 

Honestly, I'm OK with some waterfront green space.  However, I think the city should RFP and sell off the majority of the site.

[vicupstate]

I am at a complete loss on this. How can the city even fathom blowing $18mm with no real return?

What about the opportunity cost of having this waterfront land off the tax rolls?

Also the currents downtown are too strong to encourage casual kayaking etc.

Is it currently on the tax rolls? 

The land is not, the building should be.

[Charles Hunter]

The potential users of the site are lining up - The Jacksonville Aquarium

From First Coast News
"It is a perfect location," Erika Sepega, who is AquaJax's treasurer and on the board of directors, said. "Having the Jacksonville Landing kind of open up as an opportunity is really amazing."

"People travel all around the world just to go see aquariums," Sepega said. "So to have something that's iconic, something that can bring people to our downtown, would really be amazing."

A feasibility study for the aquarium estimated it would draw more than 800,000 visitors each year, though Sepega called that a conservative estimate. That means tourists spending money in Jacksonville in addition to jobs created.

Sepega said ideally, the city would donate land or provide tax incentives while the aquarium itself would be funded privately through donations. She said they plan to reach out to the city to express interest in the Landing property soon.

The aquarium would operate in partnership with the Jacksonville Zoo and Gardens, running boats in between the two properties, which makes the riverfront location ideal.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/organization-eyes-downtown-sites-including-landing-for-future-aquarium/77-fe1733c1-0187-489a-9a72-fda795b9e005

[RattlerGator]

The article illustrates that this issue is really just a symptom of a larger problem. The city is run by a cliche of people that call all the shots. That wouldn't be terrible or particularly unique, except that in JAX's case they are not susceptible to political pressure, nor are they very competent. They do it for the sake of power alone, without much thought to the broader end results.

Nate wrote something of a disappointing opinion piece, and did so clearly from a bitch and moan perspective. I love Ennis but his susceptibility for wallowing in this sort of nonsense is lamentable. Are taxpayers screwed ? ? ? Do you mean in the coming or the going, Ennis, hmmmmm ? ? ?

Lenny Curry is just like every prior Jacksonville mayor apparently. Wrong. Shad Khan has not changed the dynamic in this city apparently. Wrong. Toney Sleiman has fleeced the city apparently. Wrong. Jacksonville can't do anything right apparently. Wrong.

Y'all have been on quite a bitch-and-moan incorrectly roll. Kudos.

This quote is quite telling, likely in a way Monroe never contemplated:

Sleiman is getting far more than the buildings are worth, and almost certainly more than he could have netted in any private-sector transaction.

What, to any reasonable person, does this (it's called context, ladies and gentlemen) say about The Landing, its location, and its prospects ? ? ?

Remember, because no one was available in 2003, Sleiman got The Landing for the bargain basement price of $5 million. Hello? Logic: how do it work ? ? ?

If you want to understand the incredible benefit of having Shad Khan in town and Lenny Curry as Mayor, consider this with respect to Toney Sleiman and the Jacksonville Landing: Sleiman paid about $5 million for the buildings back in 2003. No one in town had the bankroll or the vision to do *anything* with The Landing so Sleiman comes in, undercapitalized, to tread water and gets that bargain basement price. And here we are more than 15 years later essentially paying him $10 million to go away (15 million minus the 5 million he previously paid Rouse). He's netting less than $1 million a year for being a placeholder; a good deal for him, to be sure, but in no way is the city getting fleeced. Alvin Brown, after all, was willing to *give* him $12 million and Sleiman, still undercapitalized, would *STILL* be driving the train on some kind of redevelopment effort.

So:

"City Hall is poised to pay Sleiman $15 million to walk away from his company's stewardship of The Jacksonville Landing"

Good !!! This cleans everything up and allows for a good deal to be made with a minimum of complicating players involved in the mix.

Most frustrating to me, however, is the slavish insistence on a cluster of retail in the current location when Jacksonville-specific facts indicate the Sports and Entertainment district *are* the reasonable location for that cluster. Thousands visiting the Arena, the Stadium, the Amphitheater throughout the year. A Duval Live! type of entertainment center about to be built, a high-end hotel at The Shipyards along with the possibility of a Convention Center -- you have to be some kind of a blinkered slave to *not* see how this potential approach / probable eventuality is clearly preferable.

It's high time to put down the bitch-and-moan slave mentality preferring generic, cookie-cutter urban solutions while blindly pushing a stale approach in a unique city with an opportunity to build something few American cities possess, and certainly none in Florida.

Go ahead, Lenny Curry, make that lemonade bwah !!!

[Charles Hunter]

After a couple of civic events on the lawn at Curry Park - say 4th of July and FL/GA Pep Rally, but any events with lots of people - the Parks Department will be asking the City to replace all that grass with some sort of paving material.  It will be too big a hit on their already strained budget to keep replacing grass after big events, and keeping it alive.  Similarly, to any plant material except [palm] trees.

[Snaketoz]

Curry doesn't know where he is going, but is determined to set a speed record getting there. This park idea is nothing more than the old Esplanade idea from 30+ years ago.  I, for one don't feel that Sleiman has fleeced the city at all.  I think the city has done their best to fleece Sleiman.  They refused to repair the river walk and bulkhead in front of the Landing as they were contractually obligated to do, screwed him on parking, voided his lease, made him get special permits during events, and made it almost impossible for the Landing to survive.  There were plenty of people with the capital to buy the place back in 2003.  Only Sleiman was willing to take a gamble.  It's tough to fight for survival when you have the taxpayer backed government and market forces against you.  I'm glad Sleiman gets paid.

[thelakelander]

The article illustrates that this issue is really just a symptom of a larger problem. The city is run by a cliche of people that call all the shots. That wouldn't be terrible or particularly unique, except that in JAX's case they are not susceptible to political pressure, nor are they very competent. They do it for the sake of power alone, without much thought to the broader end results.

Nate wrote something of a disappointing opinion piece, and did so clearly from a bitch and moan perspective. I love Ennis but his susceptibility for wallowing in this sort of nonsense is lamentable. Are taxpayers screwed ? ? ? Do you mean in the coming or the going, Ennis, hmmmmm ? ? ?

Lenny Curry is just like every prior Jacksonville mayor apparently. Wrong. Shad Khan has not changed the dynamic in this city apparently. Wrong. Toney Sleiman has fleeced the city apparently. Wrong. Jacksonville can't do anything right apparently. Wrong.

Y'all have been on quite a bitch-and-moan incorrectly roll. Kudos.

LOL, RattlerGator, glad to hear from you again

I love you but you've clearly missed the general point again. Much of this simply boils down to Jax clearly having no true coordinated plan or implementation strategy of achieving a dream of building a vibrant downtown core. Every four years, some different guy comes into office and does their own thing, leaving downtown in a Frankenstein-like condition where after millions in taxpayer subsidies have been handed out, we're no where closer to the goal than we were in 1980.

This quote is quite telling, likely in a way Monroe never contemplated:

Sleiman is getting far more than the buildings are worth, and almost certainly more than he could have netted in any private-sector transaction.

What, to any reasonable person, does this (it's called context, ladies and gentlemen) say about The Landing, its location, and its prospects ? ? ?

It says nothing actually. A bland structurally sound warehouse or culturally iconic building could be worth less than $1 million in overall value but still be utilized for uses that bring vibrancy. Across the country, many of your popular public markets are housed in such structures.

Remember, because no one was available in 2003, Sleiman got The Landing for the bargain basement price of $5 million. Hello? Logic: how do it work ? ? ?

I don't recall it being that way. You don't know who was available. Rouse didn't stick up a for sale sign. Regardless of that, if not for 15 years of political football, the place could have been fixed up years ago and the millions being flushed down the toilet now could have been going to opening new businesses, getting new projects off the ground, etc. Instead, we're going to spend +$20 million on resolve a self inflicted fight with an undetermined additional number for whatever is next....that no one knows about accept (further cements the comment about no vidion or coordinated direction to achieve it).

If you want to understand the incredible benefit of having Shad Khan in town and Lenny Curry as Mayor, consider this with respect to Toney Sleiman and the Jacksonville Landing: Sleiman paid about $5 million for the buildings back in 2003. No one in town had the bankroll or the vision to do *anything* with The Landing so Sleiman comes in, undercapitalized, to tread water and gets that bargain basement price. And here we are more than 15 years later essentially paying him $10 million to go away (15 million minus the 5 million he previously paid Rouse). He's netting less than $1 million a year for being a placeholder; a good deal for him, to be sure, but in no way is the city getting fleeced. Alvin Brown, after all, was willing to *give* him $12 million and Sleiman, still undercapitalized, would *STILL* be driving the train on some kind of redevelopment effort.

Sleiman has money. He's not undercapitalized. That's a pretty ignorant assumption. Also, we all know you have a thing for Khan, but let's not make the issue of razing perfectly fine taxpayer funded structures about the Jags. This is simply about the logic in first paying millions to kick existing businesses out of downtown and razing structurally sounds buildings without seriously considering adaptive reuse or a plan that keeps these businesses open, workers employed and a part of the downtown scene long term.

So:

"City Hall is poised to pay Sleiman $15 million to walk away from his company's stewardship of The Jacksonville Landing"

Good !!! This cleans everything up and allows for a good deal to be made with a minimum of complicating players involved in the mix.

My question to you is can Sleiman be removed without taxpayers also being forced to remove the businesses? Believe it or not, downtown is absolutely a better place with Hooters, Coastal Cookies, An Apple A Day, Fion MacCool's, etc. being a part of the scene than not. The Northbank already has very few businesses open at nights and weekends. It needs more, not less.

Most frustrating to me, however, is the slavish insistence on a cluster of retail in the current location when Jacksonville-specific facts indicate the Sports and Entertainment district *are* the reasonable location for that cluster. Thousands visiting the Arena, the Stadium, the Amphitheater throughout the year. A Duval Live! type of entertainment center about to be built, a high-end hotel at The Shipyards along with the possibility of a Convention Center -- you have to be some kind of a blinkered slave to *not* see how this potential approach / probable eventuality is clearly preferable.

It's actually pretty foolish to address the clustering of urban retail, entertainment, etc. in an autocentric manner. A Duval Live! should have nothing to do with what is allowed to open in the downtown core one mile west. People shouldn't have to drive to the stadium to being eat on the riverfront, go to happy hour or go to a bar.  If that's the plan, then downtown Jax will certainly become a national laughing stock.

[thelakelander]

Regarding having visions where everyone can see where you're going and participate in getting you there.....I'm in Texas at the moment. Houston clearly has a plan:



http://www.downtowndistrict.org/projects-initiatives/plan-downtown/

http://www.downtowndistrict.org/static/media/uploads/attachments/plan_downtown_report_final_spreads_sm.pdf

[Captain Zissou]

Most frustrating to me, however, is the slavish insistence on a cluster of retail in the current location when Jacksonville-specific facts indicate the Sports and Entertainment district *are* the reasonable location for that cluster. Thousands visiting the Arena, the Stadium, the Amphitheater throughout the year. A Duval Live! type of entertainment center about to be built, a high-end hotel at The Shipyards along with the possibility of a Convention Center -- you have to be some kind of a blinkered slave to *not* see how this potential approach / probable eventuality is clearly preferable.

You're exactly right.  People will VISIT the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, Duval Live...etc 

People actually LIVE and WORK near Laura Street and the current CBD.  After hundreds of millions of dollars of public and private investment, Lot J/Shipyards may have 30% of the daily repeat users or residents in the CBD.  Short of 24/7 programming, you'll never get the built in audience of the CBD, so it makes more sense to capitalize on the momentum we already have around Laura street and Hemming Park. 

[marcuscnelson]

Regarding having visions where everyone can see where you're going and participate in getting you there.....I'm in Texas at the moment. Houston clearly has a plan:

The strangest thing about that is that we've seemingly put together at least attempts for plans in the past, but recent administrations have just not bothered with it. I get that Jacksonville is a big city, and there's more than just downtown, but no one ever seems to actually want more than either lip service or whatever Shad asked for at the last meeting.

You're exactly right.  People will VISIT the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, Duval Live...etc 

People actually LIVE and WORK near Laura Street and the current CBD.  After hundreds of millions of dollars of public and private investment, Lot J/Shipyards may have 30% of the daily repeat users or residents in the CBD.  Short of 24/7 programming, you'll never get the built in audience of the CBD, so it makes more sense to capitalize on the momentum we already have around Laura street and Hemming Park. 

Ding ding ding!

Throwing away decades of work on trying to get people downtown in order to pay for Shad Khan to start all over a mile away is ridiculous. If he wants it, he should have to pay for it, and not at the expense of our urban core.

[Bill Hoff]

Fyi.

Another vacant parcel: Community pushes back against Landing demolition

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/02/25/another-vacant-parcel-community-pushes-back.html?

[KenFSU]

Listen to the audio segment here, it's amazing.

100ish locals giving their brief thoughts on what they'd like to see the Landing replaced with.

https://www.wokv.com/news/local/what-could-the-future-hold-for-the-jacksonville-landing-site/fqkesxT70lpGRnWX6wCsbO/

Some of these ideas are just priceless - semi-automatic gun ranges, a homeless shelter, a mega parking garage.

Many totally defy the fundamental laws of space (Amazon HQ2? a theme park larger than Universal?).

My favorite theme though is how many of these ideas for the Landing basically mirror what's already there. Restaurants. Retail. Indoor/outdoor shopping center. Which begs an obvious question.

Notice by the way how many people advocate for a park.