2019 Mayoral election

[Snaketoz]

Regarding the monuments to the Confederates...I can see the value from both sides.  The point I'd like to make is those who fought and served their homeland did it in a different time.  The overwhelming majority of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves.  They may have been conscripted or forced to fight.  They faced death or dire social circumstances for resisting.  They did what they had to do in a time much different than today against crushing odds.  I don't think the statues are a monument to slavery.  They are to the men that right or wrong, fought and died.  Are we going to rewrite all history using today's standards?  Should we remove all statues of famous generals and even presidents that were Indian fighters?  Would we have a 2nd Amendment now?  Should all statues of Andrew Jackson be removed?  Should we rename Jacksonville?  I think the statues can be left to show how times and values have changed and how ridiculous many of the things we once thought were right are now viewed as wrong.

[Adam White]

I made a mistake guys, geez...Anna Brosche is a Republican (that info isn't available on the COJ website, wikipedia, or hardly anywhere but local news). To all of you saying "what leftist positions Anna has?" Show me another person that wanna erase history in the South, and go all in with LGBT related issues (not that it's anything wrong with that ) that's a conservative? Show me another person, and I will apologize.

Most conservatives now days regarding LGBT will vaguely say "we will not discriminate against anyone" sorta like a Curry. Look at Trump, is he some moral traditional conservative saying "and man is made for a woman, and vice versa" Nope! He didn't give a damn about 80s tradcon wedge issues.

I think you'll find the Republicans who helped free your ancestors were all about 'erasing history in the South'.

[vicupstate]

Show me another person that wanna erase history in the South, and go all in with LGBT related issues (not that it's anything wrong with that ) that's a conservative? Show me another person, and I will apologize.

Give it 20 years, and nearly all of them will. Just like they stopped demonizing and started lionizing Martin Luther King after it become more beneficial to do so.

We get it though, you don't want to take the time to study the issues and candidates, you just want to find a 'label' so you don't have to be bothered.

[JeffreyS]

Regarding the monuments to the Confederates...I can see the value from both sides.  The point I'd like to make is those who fought and served their homeland did it in a different time.  The overwhelming majority of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves.  They may have been conscripted or forced to fight.  They faced death or dire social circumstances for resisting.  They did what they had to do in a time much different than today against crushing odds.  I don't think the statues are a monument to slavery.  They are to the men that right or wrong, fought and died.  Are we going to rewrite all history using today's standards?  Should we remove all statues of famous generals and even presidents that were Indian fighters?  Would we have a 2nd Amendment now?  Should all statues of Andrew Jackson be removed?  Should we rename Jacksonville?  I think the statues can be left to show how times and values have changed and how ridiculous many of the things we once thought were right are now viewed as wrong.

I am not saying vilify them or erase them but we should not be decorating with statues literally of enemies to our union that made war on our country. imo

[thelakelander]

Snaketoz, you need to contextualize that national statue argument and perspective in regards to local history. The story is quiet different altogether locally considering Jax was a majority black city at the time Jim Crow took over, installing many of these things in spite and as an effort to show racial superiority and domination.

[Snaketoz]

Snaketoz, you need to contextualize that national statue argument and perspective in regards to local history. The story is quiet different altogether locally considering Jax was a majority black city at the time Jim Crow took over, installing many of these things in spite and as an effort to show racial superiority and domination.

I wasn't around when these statues went up, but I think many went up in the early 20th century.  I am trying to be the devil's advocate in this discussion, and give my view of what the local citizen's intent might have been at the time, in that context.  Reconstruction embittered many Southerners and that is probably a factor as well.  It's so easy today, in the context of what we know and think today, to call it a display to "racial superiority and domination", and I don't disagree with you.  But, I'm sure some people at the time thought that with many of the soldiers of the CSA dying out, a tribute was needed to honor their valor and service.  Debating the intent now, over 150 years later, will never solve or prove anything.  I would be against erecting such monuments today.  I am against erasing history to soothe the hurt it caused. We just can't rewrite history to solve it's wrongs.

[jaxnyc79]

I made a mistake guys, geez...Anna Brosche is a Republican (that info isn't available on the COJ website, wikipedia, or hardly anywhere but local news). To all of you saying "what leftist positions Anna has?" Show me another person that wanna erase history in the South, and go all in with LGBT related issues (not that it's anything wrong with that ) that's a conservative? Show me another person, and I will apologize.

Most conservatives now days regarding LGBT will vaguely say "we will not discriminate against anyone" sorta like a Curry. Look at Trump, is he some moral traditional conservative saying "and man is made for a woman, and vice versa" Nope! He didn't give a damn about 80s tradcon wedge issues.

Show you a person who wishes to "erase history in the South?"  That's a broad-stroking and delusional reference.  Show you conservatives who wish to relocate conservative statues > well Google it, there are plenty of them.  Narrowly defining Southern American History and Heritage to only include statues in honor of "enemies of the state" is a total affront to the South and somewhat idiotic.

[thelakelander]

Snaketoz, you need to contextualize that national statue argument and perspective in regards to local history. The story is quiet different altogether locally considering Jax was a majority black city at the time Jim Crow took over, installing many of these things in spite and as an effort to show racial superiority and domination.

I wasn't around when these statues went up, but I think many went up in the early 20th century.  I am trying to be the devil's advocate in this discussion, and give my view of what the local citizen's intent might have been at the time, in that context.  Reconstruction embittered many Southerners and that is probably a factor as well.  It's so easy today, in the context of what we know and think today, to call it a display to "racial superiority and domination", and I don't disagree with you.  But, I'm sure some people at the time thought that with many of the soldiers of the CSA dying out, a tribute was needed to honor their valor and service.  Debating the intent now, over 150 years later, will never solve or prove anything.  I would be against erecting such monuments today.  I am against erasing history to soothe the hurt it caused. We just can't rewrite history to solve it's wrongs.

There's an article on here that gives you a detailed history on every Union and Confederate monument in town. I'm going into a meeting but I'll post a link to it later. It will contextualize some of the points you've raised. There's no reason to guess on most of it at this point.

[I-10east]

Jaxnyc, do you have to take everything so literal? Is speaking informal not a thing anymore (erasing history of the South)? Oh yeah, put the entire history of the South into a funnel, and what will come out the mouth of that funnel? Of course, these racist enemies of the state, obviously...

Even if that's true (other conservatives putting these statues in museums) don't act like it's widespread knowledge of something. Fifteen years from now, historical places like Kingsley Plantation will be targeted because blacks where enslaved there; Instead of learning from history, the left wants to destroy it.

I don't like the idea of wasting tax payer dollars for a virtue signal bullet point on a resume. Erase George Washington off of everything because he owned slaves, and on and on and on. The left insanity will never end; the modern left are the true fascist (you better agree with man made carbon dioxide climate change or else, Silicon Valley censorship and monopolization, toxic masculinity, and on and on and on). This BS SJW era will be looked back on decades from now in shame, and the people spearheading it is on the wrong side of history. 

[Tacachale]

Snaketoz, you need to contextualize that national statue argument and perspective in regards to local history. The story is quiet different altogether locally considering Jax was a majority black city at the time Jim Crow took over, installing many of these things in spite and as an effort to show racial superiority and domination.

I wasn't around when these statues went up, but I think many went up in the early 20th century.  I am trying to be the devil's advocate in this discussion, and give my view of what the local citizen's intent might have been at the time, in that context.  Reconstruction embittered many Southerners and that is probably a factor as well.  It's so easy today, in the context of what we know and think today, to call it a display to "racial superiority and domination", and I don't disagree with you.  But, I'm sure some people at the time thought that with many of the soldiers of the CSA dying out, a tribute was needed to honor their valor and service.  Debating the intent now, over 150 years later, will never solve or prove anything.  I would be against erecting such monuments today.  I am against erasing history to soothe the hurt it caused. We just can't rewrite history to solve it's wrongs.

There's an article on here that gives you a detailed history on every Union and Confederate monument in town. I'm going into a meeting but I'll post a link to it later. It will contextualize some of the points you've raised. There's no reason to guess on most of it at this point.

Part 1: Jacksonville's Civil War Memorials

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jacksonvilles-civil-war-memorials/

Part 2: Civil War Memorials of the First Coast

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/civil-war-memorials-of-the-first-coast-part-2/

No need for guessing, our memorials are pretty well documented. The earliest ones, mostly from the 19th century, are mostly simple and focused on the dead from the area. There are both Confederate and Union memorials. In later years, more Confederate memorials were built, and they shifted from commemorating specific soldiers to glorifying the Confederacy. They also obscured our Unionist and African-American history.

Since the mid-20th century, there has been a greater dedication to placing markers and identifying Civil War sites from both sides of the conflict. With different degrees of success, these make an effort to tell the real history of the Civil War era than Confederate monuments ever did.

[I-10east]

Removing monuments that depict people warring against the United States of America as heroes is not trying to erase history.  Put up as many historical markers or monuments relaying the stories of what happened fine. Just don't try to sell me that we should leave up statues meant to be revered of men trying their best to kill Americans and break up my country.

US history is a very complex story. IMO it's not as simple as the evil greys vs the heroic blues. More than me caring about some Confederate statue, IMO this act of tearing down all 'muh evil bronze men' WILL go past Confederacy and be an archive digging for dirt of every warrior of the past. This Inquisition-like leftist rampage will go deep into the history of Jax, Union men, US presidents etc etc etc. That's what I'm afraid of more than anything.

[jaxnyc79]

Jaxnyc, do you have to take everything so literal? Is speaking informal not a thing anymore (erasing history of the South)? Oh yeah, put the entire history of the South into a funnel, and what will come out the mouth of that funnel? Of course, these racist enemies of the state, obviously...

Even if that's true (other conservatives putting these statues in museums) don't act like it's widespread knowledge of something. Fifteen years from now, historical places like Kingsley Plantation will be targeted because blacks where enslaved there; Instead of learning from history, the left wants to destroy it.

I don't like the idea of wasting tax payer dollars for a virtue signal bullet point on a resume. Erase George Washington off of everything because he owned slaves, and on and on and on. The left insanity will never end; the modern left are the true fascist (you better agree with man made carbon dioxide climate change or else, Silicon Valley censorship and monopolization, toxic masculinity, and on and on and on). This BS SJW era will be looked back on decades from now in shame, and the people spearheading it is on the wrong side of history.

ah yes, you were being ironic.  "irony," that safe haven for idiocy, cornered and starved of its oxygen. 

this is a message board - i don't know you and you don't know me.  write clearly what you mean.  did you actually know Brosche was a republican?

it sounds as though you're confusing fascism with factualism.  i assure you that 20th century fascism was far worse and more extreme than positions on climate change and metrosexuality.  grow a pair, dude.

as for your broad indictments of the so-called left for a range of reasons well beyond the scope of this message thread, i'll just leave you to your anger and rage.

[I-10east]

^^^So 'toxic masculinity' is 'factualism' and you are telling me to grow a pair...Oh the irony... You sound like a doppelganger of Stephendare with the so called 'witty sneers'. Is it necessary to space out small sentences like that? Someone as condescending as yourself ought to know how to capitalize. Your 'factualism' regarding Al Gore climate change, and the leftist tech monopoly completely made my point regarding being fascistic. Thank you.   

[Snaketoz]

Snaketoz, you need to contextualize that national statue argument and perspective in regards to local history. The story is quiet different altogether locally considering Jax was a majority black city at the time Jim Crow took over, installing many of these things in spite and as an effort to show racial superiority and domination.

I wasn't around when these statues went up, but I think many went up in the early 20th century.  I am trying to be the devil's advocate in this discussion, and give my view of what the local citizen's intent might have been at the time, in that context.  Reconstruction embittered many Southerners and that is probably a factor as well.  It's so easy today, in the context of what we know and think today, to call it a display to "racial superiority and domination", and I don't disagree with you.  But, I'm sure some people at the time thought that with many of the soldiers of the CSA dying out, a tribute was needed to honor their valor and service.  Debating the intent now, over 150 years later, will never solve or prove anything.  I would be against erecting such monuments today.  I am against erasing history to soothe the hurt it caused. We just can't rewrite history to solve it's wrongs.

There's an article on here that gives you a detailed history on every Union and Confederate monument in town. I'm going into a meeting but I'll post a link to it later. It will contextualize some of the points you've raised. There's no reason to guess on most of it at this point.

Part 1: Jacksonville's Civil War Memorials

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jacksonvilles-civil-war-memorials/

Part 2: Civil War Memorials of the First Coast

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/civil-war-memorials-of-the-first-coast-part-2/

No need for guessing, our memorials are pretty well documented. The earliest ones, mostly from the 19th century, are mostly simple and focused on the dead from the area. There are both Confederate and Union memorials. In later years, more Confederate memorials were built, and they shifted from commemorating specific soldiers to glorifying the Confederacy. They also obscured our Unionist and African-American history.

Since the mid-20th century, there has been a greater dedication to placing markers and identifying Civil War sites from both sides of the conflict. With different degrees of success, these make an effort to tell the real history of the Civil War era than Confederate monuments ever did.

Again, think about the times before, during, and after the Civil War.  The overwhelming majority of people living around here were, poor, illiterate, superstitious, and backward.  The news, whether truth or propaganda, took weeks to arrive here.  Most of the populous didn't read.  They believed what was told to them.  The Union soldiers wanted to take your land, take your crops, rape your women, and eat your babies.  Sure they took up arms.  Many today are thinking in the modern era.  News at the speed of light, educated, and better informed.  Most mid 19th century folk never strayed out of the county they were born in.  Try to think out of the box.  You are thinking of someone born probably in the late 20th century, living in the 21st, and trying to second think those that were living before they even knew bacteria existed.  Are they stupid for riding horses?  Should they have had running water and indoor toilets? I'm trying to put my thoughts as to why we have these monuments and not whether they are correct by today's standards.  Should we tear down the Vietnam Wall or pull down the Iwo Jima monument because it offends some people?  Or can we let them stand and think never again.

[DrQue]

The fact is that the CSA seceded over the heinous institution that was slavery. Honor the confederate dead where they are buried, not in the most prominent plaza in town. The Germans honor their dead soldiers from WWII at the cemeteries, not in typical public places. It does not matter if many of the soldiers were "not Nazis" and simply defending their homeland.

Millions of souls lived their entire lives in chains and died just as they were born: property. How many slave women had their children torn away from them at birth while they were sent back to the fields to work? How many marriages where torn apart when a slave owner decided to sell a husband or a wife? How many sons, daughters, mothers, or fathers died in the suffocating hold of a slave ship?

Where are our monuments for those who died enslaved in the land of the free?

Why instead do we honor those who died to keep them enslaved in front of our city government, federal courthouse, and library?