Curry's Plan for the Landing Revealed

[Wacca Pilatka]

6th Street's a bit of a different situation because it was a hybrid of a mall and a festival marketplace, and in the middle of the core city rather than on waterfront property.  Richmond had two large department stores downtown, Thalhimers and Miller & Rhoads.  6th Street was built to connect these stores and create a mall between them to compete with the suburban malls; and also to connect to a performing arts center to the south and convention center, hotel, and arena to the north.  To that end, it had a long, narrow footprint extending across multiple blocks and separate buildings; to go from one end to the other, you had to leave one structure and cross the street to a separate structure, and ultimately crossed Broad Street via footbridge to the department stores in a symbolic linking of historically segregated neighborhoods.  It replaced several blocks of 6th Street downtown.

It ended up satisfying no one because although it was intended to serve as a competitor to suburban malls and revive the grande dame downtown stores, the store bays in its footprint were not deep enough to attract conventional mall retailers - they were the size of store spaces at the festival marketplaces.  The festival marketplace concept didn't work because that part of Richmond still had a reputation (not really deserved, IMHO) in the 80s and 90s as dangerous, and the convention business wasn't brisk from what I understand, with relative desolation around the center and its Marriott at the time.  (Richmond also repurposed its Main Street train station at the time into a second shopping center - outlet oriented as I recall, but like a festival marketplace thematically since it was in a historic urban building.  Not sure if the two malls cannibalized each other.  The station is now a functioning train station again.)

The department stores both closed in the early 90s, after their acquisition by national chains.  That pretty much killed the Marketplace, though it hung on until 2002 or 2003 or so.  I visited there right before it closed.  It was a pleasant building, similar in look to Waterside and the Landing (brickwork, decorative green metal roof) and nicely lit with natural light, and the bridge over Broad was beautiful in intent as well as design.  But the whole plan was structurally flawed.

Richmond has made a tremendous comeback, and its urban core has become very successful and attractive to new residents with its walkability, historic preservation, and outdoor recreation opportunities.  The area around the coliseum and convention center, once rather desolate, has filled in with a walkable tech park area and visitor center.  Virginia Commonwealth University's expansion has led to revitalization on Broad Street.  The Thalhimers building was repurposed as a performing arts center expansion, Miller & Rhoads as a hotel, and tearing down the structure seemingly made sense in enhancing walkability through the neighborhood.

All of that being said - wholeheartedly agree on adaptive reuse of the Landing, not tearing it down.

[KenFSU]

https://www.restaurantnews.com/hooters-brings-new-contemporary-design-to-jacksonville-landing-location-062918/

[Charles Hunter]

Any plans for the Landing must include resilience for more frequent flooding, the ability to absorb inundations without extensive closures and reconstruction.  Wonder if the redecorated Hooters includes this?

[pierre]

Just tear down the entire Landing except for the Hooters. Just a giant park with a centerpiece Hooters.

[thelakelander]

Any plans for the Landing must include resilience for more frequent flooding, the ability to absorb inundations without extensive closures and reconstruction.  Wonder if the redecorated Hooters includes this?

From what I understand, the Landing building itself did not flood during Irma. It was the lower lying outdoor areas that were underwater.

[KenFSU]

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20181017/jacksonville-landing-awaits-city-decision-on-florida-georgia-events

[Charles Hunter]

Curry is playing a dangerous game.  If the City denies the permit - then what happens?  Do they padlock shut the Landing doors? String concertina wire across the openings between Landing buildings?  Thousands of FLA/GA fans are going to arrive at the Landing, expecting a party.  What happens when they can't get in?  What about the food and drink establishments inside the Landing, that probably depend on FLA/GA weekend for a significant portion of their revenues? They and their employees should suffer because Curry and Sleiman are in a measuring contest?

It seems a better option for the City is to let the events go on as scheduled.  If the court rules in the City's favor, add the fines to the on-going dispute between the City and the Landing.

[fieldafm]

Curry is playing a dangerous game.  If the City denies the permit - then what happens?  Do they padlock shut the Landing doors? String concertina wire across the openings between Landing buildings?  Thousands of FLA/GA fans are going to arrive at the Landing, expecting a party.  What happens when they can't get in?  What about the food and drink establishments inside the Landing, that probably depend on FLA/GA weekend for a significant portion of their revenues? They and their employees should suffer because Curry and Sleiman are in a measuring contest?

It seems a better option for the City is to let the events go on as scheduled.  If the court rules in the City's favor, add the fines to the on-going dispute between the City and the Landing.

Completely agree. The City's actions here aren't just aimed at hurting Sleiman... but also to the small business owners who have invested their life savings into trying to earn a living downtown, serving the thousands of visitors who will be descending upon downtown next week.

Frankly, that's a pretty shameful position. The Landing has been open for 31 years and the FL/GA game has been held in Jacksonville for more than 80 years. In fact, the City's contract with both schools calls for a safety zone at the Landing (where people can receive medical attention). The City does a lot of things right, and this mayoral administration has generally accomplished some good things.  But this particular bullying is very poor form on the City's part. 

[Captain Zissou]

Curry is playing a dangerous game.  If the City denies the permit - then what happens?  Do they padlock shut the Landing doors? String concertina wire across the openings between Landing buildings?  Thousands of FLA/GA fans are going to arrive at the Landing, expecting a party.  What happens when they can't get in?  What about the food and drink establishments inside the Landing, that probably depend on FLA/GA weekend for a significant portion of their revenues? They and their employees should suffer because Curry and Sleiman are in a measuring contest?

It seems a better option for the City is to let the events go on as scheduled.  If the court rules in the City's favor, add the fines to the on-going dispute between the City and the Landing.

News coverage of the game always shows the scene at the landing.  Imagine the negative press if it's boarded up and empty.  I say Sleiman should put an enormous banner on the roof blaming the city if he doesn't get his permit. This could be a great opportunity to show the resiliency of the city and its citizens after a the widely televised shooting a couple months ago, but I'm not betting any money that the city will do the right thing.

[vicupstate]

This is so stupid. Has the Landing applied for these permits in previous years?  I assume the answer can only be No. If so, then the city cannot now say that the rules are different or never enforced before, but now will be. If the city has operated in the past as though these permits were not required, the legal argument to change that understanding is very flimsy, it would appear to me.   

[fieldafm]

Some will say that the City is 'doing the right thing'... but this looks more like a veiled attempt at artificially limiting the amount of money the owners of the Landing and the many small business owners who make up the venue can earn during their BUSIEST weekend of the year.


http://news.wjct.org/post/jacksonville-landing-receives-last-minute-permit-fla-ga-events

The show will go on at The Jacksonville Landing during Florida-Georgia weekend.

Our Florida Times-Union news partner reports the city of Jacksonville issued a special events permit Wednesday for the Landing to once again be a festive gathering spot for fans, but the permit will limit the crowd to no more than 7,500 people at a time.

The Landing will be able to set up outdoor bars serving alcoholic beverages, but the city's permit limits the Landing to five of those bars.

WTF on the 7,500 people?  That's nowhere near the capacity of the actual venue.  Has the City ever restricted the number of outdoor bars for events like One Spark, Welcome to Rockville or Jazz Fest?? The answer is, no.

Political games have hurt the Landing for over 30 years. When is it going to end?! Keep in mind, that the Rouse company sued the City of Jacksonville well before they ever sold the Landing to Sleiman Enterprises.

Its no surprise why downtown struggles...

Has the Landing applied for these permits in previous years?

The answer to that, is 'no'.

[KenFSU]

This thing just keeps escalating.

Sleiman just announced that he won't be paying his annual lease for the Landing this year, and will instead use the money to undertake repairs that the city has neglected.

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20181109/battle-over-jacksonville-landing-turns-to-rent-payment

[remc86007]

Why would he do that rather than just walk away and let the whole thing be the city's problem?

[KenFSU]

Why would he do that rather than just walk away and let the whole thing be the city's problem?

This 2005 article from the Daily Record provides a good glimpse of Sleiman's mindset on surrendering the Landing.

Sleiman: Landing not for sale

by Mike Sharkey

Staff Writer

Despite upwards of a dozen offers over the past 16 months, some more serious than others, Landing owner Toney Sleiman is not at all interested in selling the riverfront mall and he'd really like to squelch that persistent rumor.

"I've had 10-12 people call me, wanting to meet with me, trying to make offers," said Sleiman. "The Landing is not for sale. I have told them I am not at that point and that I'm not interested. I don't buy properties and flip them. I'm a developer."

"I want to make the Landing the No. 1 spot in the southeast. That's my goal," said Sleiman, who also owns many other commercial properties all over the First Coast. "I am doing this for my mother who came to Jacksonville in 1917. My family has been here for 85 years. The Landing is not for sale and I am going to bring life back to downtown."

"What has to happen first? I have to get some parking. Until I get more parking, the Landing will stay as it is," said Sleiman. "When I get parking, though, watch what I do. I have commitments from national retail chains and restaurants that have said they will come to the Landing when I get parking. When I get them, everything else happens."

Sleiman isn't in a hurry. His other properties are generating revenue and he understands how slowly the financial and bureaucratic wheels can grind. And, Sleiman has both time on his side and a proven track record to fall back on.

"I'm very patient. I've got 52 years left on my lease. I'll get impatient in 50 years," he said. "I probably buy more commercial property in Jacksonville than anyone. I have never sold anything without developing it. I have been working this deal for 16 months. It is not for sale. I do not need the money.

"The Landing is absolutely, 100 percent not for sale. Even if I got an offer for 10 times what I paid for it, it's not for sale."

[Snaketoz]

My bet is Sleiman wins.

I think Sleiman should and will win.  I question whether or not the "win" will do any good as far as the Landing goes.  Will Curry and company use other means to crowd him out?  Even in winning Tony will have lots of enemies in high places.

Fast forward to Feb. 20, 2019...