Jacksonville City Council President calls for Confederate memorials to be moved

[jlmann]

Can you guys be sure to post a link to all the ongoing programs and initiatives that utilize confederate monuments and our history of race relations to educate and bring people together?

I wont hold my breath though so take your time.

OR just maybe the idea of educating and learning from our past from such monuments is just a hypothetical invention that never happens in the real world so white people can justify these monuments still standing in front of city hall.

I'm pretty sure black people have a firm grasp on the effects of slavery, segregation and the Jim Crow era and don't need a monument as a reminder.  I'd recommend we defer to those who've actually been effected by the figures we honor through monuments.

[jlmann]

You don't suppose there is a cause and effect?  Perhaps the decision to tear down the monuments became a rallying cause for the KKK and nazi's.  Washington and Jefferson were slave holders... I wonder what might happen should some decide those memorials be torn down or renamed...

Because owning slaves in an 18th century colony and killing your own countrymen in 1860 to defend slavery is the same thing.  Also, Jefferson was an advocate for abolition so it's a tad more complicated than you make it, considering he was a founding father, not a confederate leader of no particular import to the USA. The slave-owning president argument is not a good comparison by any objective reasoning and serves to distract.

Perhaps tearing stuff down is a rallying cry currently.  But we should do exactly like the gov. of VA- tell these fools to go home- they are not welcome in civilized society and then keep ripping them out.

How much more of a rallying cry to stop and let these morons win.  Actual success and even perceived success will be invigorating to the white nationalists cause.

Finally try to imagine all the arguments for confederate monuments being used in Germany.  "Heinrich Himmler served the German army well and did his duty.  His service should be honored and remembered as a part of our history"

[BridgeTroll]

Im glad to hear you draw the line at confederates... not so sure about others.  Conflating Himmler with Lee is a bit of a stretch...  Keep ripping em out... I have no dog in the fight but I certainly see more violence...

[camarocane]

Im glad to hear you draw the line at confederates... not so sure about others.  Conflating Himmler with Lee is a bit of a stretch...  Keep ripping em out... I have no dog in the fight but I certainly see more violence...

I agree, but I see both sides to the argument. I like what Tacachale suggested before, place a union statue in the same plaza. Even rename the park, Civil War Memorial Park.. or whatever... Rename Confederate Park while you're at it... but to remove a piece of, what I perceive is historical art or architecture is as shortsighted as demolishing LaVilla. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it seems like a kneejerk reaction to a bigger problem.

[Snaketoz]

Wow! Such hyperbole.  I suppose if these monuments are taken down, we'll end racism.  To say these statues are a rallying point for the far right is lunacy.  I guess there are no bigots in places without these statues.  The guy that ran over the protestors in Va. was from Maumee, OH.  You suppose he got his idiot license there under a confederate statue?  Tear down the Washington monument and the Jefferson memorial.  They owned slaves and by todays thinking should be erased from our history.  This hysteria is a lot like banning homosexuals from our society.  You know, they will turn our kids gay.  What a crock.

[KenFSU]

If we do consider the Hemming monument to be historically significant, it might be worth taking it down and putting it in a museum or its own protection as well:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/confederate-statue-pulled-down-north-carolina-trnd/index.html

^I can imagine this becoming a thing.

[icarus]

I'd like a real honest discussion about race and how the social programs of the political parties have contributed if not were designed to keep minorities second class citizens.

Fine idea, but the political right has zero desire to have that conversation.  In fact the conversation they have day in and day out with their voters is how 99%+ of beneficiaries of social programs are lazy and unworthy.  You can certainly make social programs more efficient and productive, but the national GOP and related parties don't even believe in the concept of social programs, let alone reforming them.

The political right has been having that discussion for decades. If you actually opened up your history books and looked at the social programs put in place over the last 100 years, it might be enlightening.  Housing incentives and support for african americans that focused on concentrating poor minorities in the same areas .... away from whites.  Or, welfare and aid incentives that were designed to encourage minorities if not incentivize them to remain poor and uneducated.

You see the Democratic party was the party of the South.  They lost the war but they used a political strategy to marginalize and keep the minorities segregated under the guise of social aid packages.  The Democrats used the political ruse to convince entire demographics to become poor slaves to their political party beholden to them for social programs that kept them fed but never ahead. 

*************
Change the name of Confederate Park. There is no reason for that name.  And lets talk about consolidation in our City if you want to talk history. The whites fled downtown Jacksonville for the suburbs but became increasingly anxious because the 'blacks' were gaining political control of the City. At first, retirement towers were built downtown to ensconce retired white voters downtown ... when that didnt do enough we consolidated to put an end to the possible control of City by the minorities.

Our City has a history of casual and ingrained racism in our community and in our politics.  I'd rather have these discussions because quite honestly I'd rather fix the real problems so as to root out and eliminate racists than wonder if a foot tall statue is a "rallying point."

[FlaBoy]

There's another side of this debate that continues to be overlooked when it comes to the concept of rewriting history from a local perspective. 

1. How many people today know that Confederate Park isn't the original name of the park? It was originally named Dignan Park, in honor of the city's former chairman of the Board of Public Works, Peter Dignan.  Perhaps if Dignan wasn't Catholic, Jim Crow sentiment would not have led to the public space being renamed Confederate Park in 1914.   

2. How many people today know that Jax is home to a Union Soldier's Monument that predates Charles Hemming's donation to the city by seven years?  This suggests that many of our descendants fought for the Union as well.

3. How many people today know that Jax was the site of the first documented professional performance of the blues on stage?  A performance that took place roughly two blocks north of the county courthouse.

4. How many people know that Jax was a majority black city for most of its history prior to Consolidation?

These are just a few examples where history has been rewritten or ignored over a century of tailoring story telling of the city's development from a singular perspective that dominated the thinking of city leaders during the Jim Crow era.  This place has a fascinating multi-cultural history.  Yet, it's 2017 and we spend more time debating over the merits of saving a false historical narrative while marginalizing our true past and identity to the point that most of us have no real recollection of it.

100% agree.

I looked up what the monument in Hemming Park says:

TO THE SOLDIERS OF FLORIDA
THIS SHAFT IS BY A COMRADE RAISED IN
TESTIMONY OF HIS LOVE, RECALLING DEEDS
IMMORTAL, HEROISM UNSURPASSED.
WITH RANKS UNBROKEN, RAGGED, STARVED
AND DECIMATED, THE SOUTHERN SOLDIER,
FOR DUTY'S SAKE, UNDAUNTED STOOD TO
THE FRONT OF BATTLE UNTIL NO LIGHT
REMAINED TO ILLUMINE THE FIELD OF CARNAGE,
SAVE THE LUSTRE OF HIS CHIVALRY AND COURAGE.

"NOR SHALL YOUR GLORY BE FORGOT/WHILE FAME HER RECORD KEEPS,/OR HONOR POINTS THE HALLOWED SPOT
WHERE VALOR PROUDLY SLEEPS."

CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL 1861-1865

OUR HEROES

GOD BLESS OUR COUNTRY 1898

[FlaBoy]

The Union Soldier Memorial in Evergreen states,

In memory of our comrades who defended the flag of the Union, on land and sea, 1861-1865."

With malice toward none, with charity for all.

Fraternity, charity and loyalty.

Erected by O.M. Mitchell Post, No. 4, Department of Florida, G.A.R., May 30, 1891.

[camarocane]

If we do consider the Hemming monument to be historically significant, it might be worth taking it down and putting it in a museum or its own protection as well:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/confederate-statue-pulled-down-north-carolina-trnd/index.html

^I can imagine this becoming a thing.

Alternatively,  it may be destroyed by moving it to a new location. Or maybe its destroyed by the mob at the new location. The city could invest money toward other means of protecting the statues and monuments rather than trying to relocate them, if that was the driving factor behind its removal... which it is not.

[vicupstate]

I'd like a real honest discussion about race and how the social programs of the political parties have contributed if not were designed to keep minorities second class citizens.

Fine idea, but the political right has zero desire to have that conversation.  In fact the conversation they have day in and day out with their voters is how 99%+ of beneficiaries of social programs are lazy and unworthy.  You can certainly make social programs more efficient and productive, but the national GOP and related parties don't even believe in the concept of social programs, let alone reforming them.

The political right has been having that discussion for decades. If you actually opened up your history books and looked at the social programs put in place over the last 100 years, it might be enlightening.  Housing incentives and support for african americans that focused on concentrating poor minorities in the same areas .... away from whites.  Or, welfare and aid incentives that were designed to encourage minorities if not incentivize them to remain poor and uneducated.

You see the Democratic party was the party of the South.  They lost the war but they used a political strategy to marginalize and keep the minorities segregated under the guise of social aid packages.  The Democrats used the political ruse to convince entire demographics to become poor slaves to their political party beholden to them for social programs that kept them fed but never ahead. 

*************
Change the name of Confederate Park. There is no reason for that name.  And lets talk about consolidation in our City if you want to talk history. The whites fled downtown Jacksonville for the suburbs but became increasingly anxious because the 'blacks' were gaining political control of the City. At first, retirement towers were built downtown to ensconce retired white voters downtown ... when that didnt do enough we consolidated to put an end to the possible control of City by the minorities.

Our City has a history of casual and ingrained racism in our community and in our politics.  I'd rather have these discussions because quite honestly I'd rather fix the real problems so as to root out and eliminate racists than wonder if a foot tall statue is a "rallying point."

The Democratic party was the party of the South from post-reconstruction until the Civil Rights movement. There was no Republican Party to amount to anything. Virtually EVERYONE in the South was a Democrat then, particularly before 1964. That included those BOTH Pro and Anti Civil Rights. It is just as much true that Southern Democrats were for Civil Rights then as it is to say Southern Democrats were against Civil Rights. It is like saying people with a nose were for Civil Rights and people with a nose were against Civil Rights. Once the Civil Rights movement took hold, many Anti-Civil Rights Democrats became Republicans because of the Goldwater and Nixon campaigns.           

The Cathedral buildings were all built AFTER consolidation, and only comprise a few thousand people, not enough to change anything.  Consolidation was approved by a majority of both black and white voters. Overall it passed 2-1. The driving issue was the corruption, ineptitude and inefficiency of the existing city/county governments.     

[BridgeTroll]

Oops... another one... may need dynamite...



http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/

[JaxHistory]

1. How many people today know that Confederate Park isn't the original name of the park? It was originally named Dignan Park, in honor of the city's former chairman of the Board of Public Works, Peter Dignan.  Perhaps if Dignan wasn't Catholic, Jim Crow sentiment would not have led to the public space being renamed Confederate Park in 1914.   

Was it Jim Crow sentiment or the fact that 8,000 Confederate Veterans held a reunion there.

Confederate Park History

Confederate Park is located near downtown, in the Springfield area of north Jacksonville. First named Dignan Park, for a chairman of the Board of Public Works, it opened in 1907 and contained the City's first supervised playground. The United Confederate Veterans chose Jacksonville as the site for their annual reunion in 1914, and the park as the site for a monument honoring the Women of the Southland. Five months after the reunion of an estimated 8,000 former Confederate soldiers, the City renamed the park, and the monument was erected the next year. During the early decades, citizens came from all over Jacksonville to attend cultural events at the park or to see the beautiful Rose Arbor. Visitors strolled along the lovely Hogans Creek Promenade that opened in 1930, and in more recent years attend events sponsored by the Springfield Improvement Association & Woman's Club.

[FlaBoy]

1. How many people today know that Confederate Park isn't the original name of the park? It was originally named Dignan Park, in honor of the city's former chairman of the Board of Public Works, Peter Dignan.  Perhaps if Dignan wasn't Catholic, Jim Crow sentiment would not have led to the public space being renamed Confederate Park in 1914.   

Was it Jim Crow sentiment or the fact that 8,000 Confederate Veterans held a reunion there.

Confederate Park History

Confederate Park is located near downtown, in the Springfield area of north Jacksonville. First named Dignan Park, for a chairman of the Board of Public Works, it opened in 1907 and contained the City's first supervised playground. The United Confederate Veterans chose Jacksonville as the site for their annual reunion in 1914, and the park as the site for a monument honoring the Women of the Southland. Five months after the reunion of an estimated 8,000 former Confederate soldiers, the City renamed the park, and the monument was erected the next year. During the early decades, citizens came from all over Jacksonville to attend cultural events at the park or to see the beautiful Rose Arbor. Visitors strolled along the lovely Hogans Creek Promenade that opened in 1930, and in more recent years attend events sponsored by the Springfield Improvement Association & Woman's Club.

Racial sentiments probably contributed but you are right. it was a big deal for them to hold the reunion here and the tourism dollars that flowed in. Nevertheless, I would like to see Confederate Park's name changed. Leave the statues to the women of the Southland and the history aspects but it's time to change the name. Again, statues honoring dead Civil War soldiers from Florida and Jacksonville is one thing but the stigma from the park name has held it back. It would be nice for a name change and some investment in the park in one swift move. Maybe get some sponsorship from a prominent family or corporation to fix it up?

[thelakelander]

I'll go with Jim Crow. 1914 was at the height of a cultural shift (for the worse, IMO) in Jacksonville's history. There was a reason most of Jacksonville's enlightened black population headed north and the silent film industry migrated west around the same time.  If Dignan wasn't a Catholic, that park would have had a much better chance of keeping its original name, regardless of a reunion taking place there.

Confederate Park History

Confederate Park is located near downtown, in the Springfield area of north Jacksonville. First named Dignan Park, for a chairman of the Board of Public Works, it opened in 1907 and contained the City's first supervised playground. The United Confederate Veterans chose Jacksonville as the site for their annual reunion in 1914, and the park as the site for a monument honoring the Women of the Southland. Five months after the reunion of an estimated 8,000 former Confederate soldiers, the City renamed the park, and the monument was erected the next year. During the early decades, citizens came from all over Jacksonville to attend cultural events at the park or to see the beautiful Rose Arbor. Visitors strolled along the lovely Hogans Creek Promenade that opened in 1930, and in more recent years attend events sponsored by the Springfield Improvement Association & Woman's Club.

But yeah, this quote is a good example of telling history in a way that doesn't reflect the overall picture.  It's sort of like presenting the word "plantation" in a positive way.  It's only positive if you when viewed from a perspective of the population that resided in the house and not the field. Needless to say, we've found a way to include plantation in the name of many of our most upscale suburban developments.