Mayor taking proactive stance on downtown development

[heights unknown]

^Yeah, it would be a real shame to lose that building without a firm plan for something to replace it. We wouldn't get that level of density again for a long time.

I agree; those are two very nice, sturdy, and still modern 20th century buildings. Keep the wrecking ball and the bulldozers away until we know that that property where those two buildings sit, are ready for immediate development.

[heights unknown]

It appears Detroit's sugar daddy Dan Gilbert thinks adaptive reuse is an economically viable option there.  Here's a few pictures from earlier this summer:














Back in 2006



Many of the revitalized buildings on Woodward Avenue were abandoned back when this 2006 streetscape aerial was taken.

I believe and I'm hopeful Curry's administration has something up their sleeve that will be funded in the next four years of his plan. If not, spending $8 million to demolish without considering adaptive reuse is a questionable exercise.

No........it's not a "questionable exercise," it's just plain "a waste," and just plain stupid.

[KenFSU]

So this year's budget is year one of a plan to invest $1.2 billion into 223 projects over the next five years....

Mayor Lenny Curry's proposed 2017-18 budget includes a major Downtown project — demolition of the old City Hall and Duval County Courthouse along East Bay Street.

His capital improvement plan includes $8 million to demolish the buildings, with another $8 million for the continued remediation of the Liberty Street and the Coastline Drive parking deck near the structures.

"If we are going to attract private dollars Downtown, we must prepare Downtown for private investment," Curry said Monday as he presented the budget to City Council.

In the past, ideas surfaced for a new convention center on the property as well as a public park or other private investment.
Curry said while there are no plans for the sites, demolishing the structures is more "about demonstrating that we're action-oriented, that we're not going to sit around and talk about it."

"When you have old, dilapidated buildings Downtown, what does that say to private investors? It says the city's not serious," he said.

Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/the-jacksonville-budget-mayor-taking-proactive-stance-on-development

Rummell has not purchased the property that the District will lie on from JEA? What's up with that?

Due diligence.

From the T-U last week:

The state Department of Environmental Protection recently signed off on a clean bill of health for the site, a crucial regulatory hurdle that had to be crossed before the development team could close on the property. It's just a matter of paperwork at this point.

[heights unknown]

^I believe the plan is to sod it the way the Shipyards is sodded now.  Other than parking for Jags games, there's not much of the public taking advantage of all that green space two blocks east.  I doubt there will be much difference here. I just find it difficult to believe there's not something else coming down the pipeline that will be revealed at a later date.

Then quit being so secretive and at least give a hint; if not a hint, then reveal it or don't raze, bull doze, or ball wreck anything until development, development, development is imminent.

[howfam]

There is no proposed change in the millage rate. Curry intends to set aside $150.5 million for this year's share of his proposed five-year capital improvement plan, a $1.2 billion investment strategy that includes 223 ongoing or updated projects.  Of that, $46.7 million would be paid for with available cash and grants and the remaining $103.7 million would be financed by debt. For 2017-18, Curry wants to begin work on 103 projects, including the $16 million to take down the old government buildings and repair the waterfront. He said another attraction to recruit private investment is to spend city money on infrastructure like roads, bridges and sidewalks. 

I like the Mayor's "get it done" mentality, but that statement is simply a re-hashing of the same old mistakes of the past...and unless there is a concrete plan on the table, let's done just go demolishing buildings...especially that Annex.

I agree. Wait until something tangible and "development ready" is on the table, and then demolish them. Work to get the property developed, market and promote the property to not only locals, but outsiders as well (nation wide). We do not need to be making he same mistake as in the past with demolish it, leave it empty, and they will come.

Exactly, and any "concrete plan" should include a building or buildings that are as tall or taller than the current ones. We need high rises in downtown and it doesn't further the cause when you tear down a high rise (like the 15 story annex) and replace it with only a 4 story structure, regardless of the use.

[KenFSU]

From Ron Littlepage's new column:

Curry and his team have chosen some solid priorities.

Downtown is clearly on the move, and Curry is right to propose spending $8 million to finally demolish the old county courthouse and old city hall.

Doing that and providing the money to complete the Liberty Street repair project will make available an attractive piece of riverfront property that will be ripe for development, perhaps for a public/private partnership for a new convention center.

Here's my question.

We've heard a lot of people throw around the term "public/private partnership" in regards to a potential convention center at the site of the old Courthouse/Annex, including Littlepage.

Does anybody even stop to consider how such a thing would even work, or who the private partner would be?

Los Angeles - one of the most desirable convention cities on the planet - hasn't been able to find a private partner to help get a new convention center off the ground. Neither could Miami or Fort Lauderdale. In fact, there isn't a single convention center in the United States built upon a public/private partnership. Zero. None.

For the most part, convention centers are loss leaders that draw attendees in to spend money at hotels, restaurants, etc.

Gonna make a bold claim:

There's zero chance that Curry pushes for a convention center on the site of the Annex and/or Courthouse.

He's looking east.

Let's use our heads here.

1) Curry has clearly stated to local media that the intent of the Annex and Courthouse destruction is to "make them more attractive sites for private development." Again, he's been very direct about his goals with downtown. If these demolitions were paving the way for a new convention center, we'd know about it prior to the budget being released.

2) Curry has also been stating for the last 6 months that downtown progress was going to come on the back of public/private partnership.

3) Historically speaking, the only prayer that a new Jacksonville convention gets built under a public/private partnership is if it is attached to Khan's proposed Metro Park hotel.

4) Khan has pushed for it. At the Daily's Place groundbreaking, he said, "We have, across the street, a great opportunity for a high-end hotel/convention center, which this town really needs." His Shipyards plans feature a lot of exhibition space around the hotel as well.

It's a FAR less desirable spot for a convention center than the blocks being demo'd, but reading between the lines, and also looking at moves made by the Jaguars organization in the last couple of years, I think it's pretty clear where this thing is going. Metro Park becomes a hotel/convention center, jointly financed by the Jags and the city, and Bold Events either operates or co-operates the venue.

Khan's Shipyard plans call for an up to 500 room hotel. The Jags play 8 games a year in Jacksonville. Who's filling those rooms the other 344 nights a year? Who's keeping the adjacent restaurants and retail in Khan's proposal busy throughout the year?

Think about it, particularly through the lens of how Khan typically operates.

Every project has a public and private component.

1) 2013 - $63 million in stadium upgrades, co-funded by the city ($43 million) and the Jags ($20 million). The Jags got expensive new club sections and cabanas, infrastructure upgrades, and the public got new video boards.

2) 2016 - $90 million in stadium upgrades, co-funded by the city ($45 million) and the Jags ($45 million). On the surface, the public got a new amphitheater for fifty cents on the dollar, but in reality, we really co-financed a new practice field for the Jags and almost $20 million in club upgrades to Everbank as well.

3) 2018 - $$$ for a new hotel and convention center, co-funded by the city ($$$) and the Jags ($$$). Again, it will probably be spun politically and by the media as Jacksonville getting a convention center for fifty cents on the dollar through a 50/50 partnership with the Jags, but in reality, we'll be co-financing Khan's hotel as well.

The alternative is that Khan simply builds a hotel on the Metro Park site that is 100% privately funded. That's not his MO.

Watch it happen.

It all adds up.

[marcuscnelson]

So essentially we're going to do more of the same thing that left LaVilla and the Shipyards so desolate in the first place and just pray that the private sector decides to simply do us a favor and build things for us. When instead, we could try to protecting the density we do have and trying to grow more in other places.

We tear down the Courthouse/Annex, Khan becomes the only option in town for a future convention center unless we choose to build a new one from scratch.

Some things really never change.

[Keith-N-Jax]

The whole Khan thing is just speculation.

[Noone]

^I believe the plan is to sod it the way the Shipyards is sodded now.  Other than parking for Jags games, there's not much of the public taking advantage of all that green space two blocks east.  I doubt there will be much difference here. I just find it difficult to believe there's not something else coming down the pipeline that will be revealed at a later date.

Then quit being so secretive and at least give a hint; if not a hint, then reveal it or don't raze, bull doze, or ball wreck anything until development, development, development is imminent.

More flex space.
Free parking?
If you have FREE or taxpayer subsidized parking you don't care about parking.
Before you pull my post ask about Unity Plaza (Its not just a retention pond) and those sacrificial investors who have lost everything. The noticed meeting that had Council members Newby and Anderson along with the 3 guys and DB with the TU. Parking was another issue.
The DIA wants it down. So down it comes.

[thelakelander]

The whole Khan thing is just speculation.

This. I've heard some credible rumors specifically about the courthouse site in recent weeks. I don't know if they'll materialize but they're out there. Also, there are some examples of public private partnerships involving convention center complexes and hotels. The Irving Convention Center at Las Colinas and its Westin is an example. There, Provident Resources Group (PRG) threw in $115 million.  Without more details, it's pretty hard for me to speculate one way or another on this one. Nevertheless, the talk about demolishing to spur downtown revitalization or encourage private investment sounds like the same ole, same ole.

[vicupstate]

The Irving Convention Center at Las Colinas and its Westin is an example. There, Provident Resources Group (PRG) threw in $115 million.

Do you know specifically how the private money was allocated? Was it more so for the Hotel that included ownership of it?

KenFSU makes a lot of sense. I have never heard of a PPP involving a Convention Center either.

You have to wonder if the Hyatt would surviving on its own if KenFSU is right and the CC went to the Stadium District.   

[KenFSU]

The whole Khan thing is just speculation.

Clearly, but so is anything else at this point.

I hope I'm wrong, it's a terrible idea.

[thelakelander]

I've heard things from a few credible sources, that point to a potential P3 CC deal at the courthouse site.  It's not impossible to pull off, but it's one of those things where I'll believe it when I see it (which is how I view most major DT projects today....including the Shipyards).  The economy is only going to be good for so long. So those projects that don't quickly get moving will probably fizzle out like most proposed a decade ago.

As for the convention center, I think you guys are more accurate if you're envisioning a full 100% brand new convention center complex.  However, I'm not sure Jax really needs to go all out. The Hyatt already has a comparable amount of meeting and ballroom space to the Prime Osborn and it's centralized. What it does not have is an exhibition hall. The Prime Osborn's main problems are that it is in the middle of nowhere, it's dated and the exhibition hall is too small. So really what we need is a bigger/modern exhibition hall in a centralized area of town that is connected to additional meeting/ballroom space and lots of hotel rooms. If that's the position taken, you're looking more at a P3 hotel type of deal that includes attached meeting space. 

Another city that recently did something similar is Norfolk. Nofolk doesn't have a traditional convention center downtown. So they did a P3 with Gold Key | PHR Hotels & Resorts for a luxury Hilton hotel, conference center, restaurants and parking garage. It just opened and is across the street from another hotel/conference center (Waterside Marriott), that the city landed with a similar P3 deal.

https://pilotonline.com/news/government/local/incentives-in-norfolk-smooth-path-for-developer-of-hotel-conference/article_8ff96d05-4bdd-5059-b3d6-f7fb668a0c96.html

Here's pictures of both of those hotel and conference centers from a stop I made through there earlier this year:

Waterside Marriott and convention center


Hilton on Main (the P3 new mixed use center) on the left and Waterside Marriott (the older P3 hotel/convention space) on the right.


Hilton on Main


Waterside Marriott convention center on right, hotel rooms above and public parking garage on left

[MusicMan]

"Doing that (demolition) and providing the money to complete the Liberty Street repair project will make available an attractive piece of riverfront property that will be ripe for development"


Well one thing we've got plenty of already is "attractive piece of riverfront property ripe for development." 

Shipyards? School Board site? Met Park?
Not sure Littlepage has actually driven around down there lately.

[FlaBoy]

The whole Khan thing is just speculation.

Clearly, but so is anything else at this point.

I hope I'm wrong, it's a terrible idea.

Courthouse/Annex site is the best place for the convention center to have the most impact. However, the stadium site is not a terrible idea as you say. You would basically have the stadium, convention center, a hotel, amphitheater, and practice field (additional enclosed space) all connected at a unique venue. The Arena and Baseball Grounds are easy walking distance. The biggest winner would be the development on A Philip Randolph there. The big draw back is a hurting and very dead downtown gets very little stimulus from a convention center a mile away and the same problems remain for Bay St/Elbow and the Landing. Nevertheless, if Khan agreed to pay for half or 40% of the convention site/hotel, that is a tough deal to turn down. To me the clear spot is the Courthouse/Annex sites, but #2 would be a Khan project connected to our investments in the stadium district.

I hope Lake is right though with another hotel/convention center on the Courthouse/Annex site which is what Curry said was on the drawing board in his annual meeting with the TU Editorial Board.