Mayor Curry wants the Landing back

[jaxjags]

lol.

if youre at the one consolidated retail development downtown and don't like the establishments that do not cater to anything other than someone who needs toothpaste or a happy meal, you could walk several miles to check out the few disconnected islands of entertainment we have down town.  same thing!

if you commissioned a market study for 5pts by an out of town co. who knew nothing of the area, what would they come back with?  Certainly not what's there.  We need vision, and not sleiman's

I would argue at this time counting on anyone having a vision is not going to happen. I tend to agree with lakelander as to let market go as it decides. Several good examples:

MD Anderson/Baptist - Many healthcare professionals rent near the facility, thus Ventures apartments and retail as demanded.

Brooklyn - Becomimg an urban suburb with access to DT/5PTs/Riverside, thus another 10 story apt. building and retail as demanded.

Sports/Entertainment District - Becoming a destination, thus breweries, distillaries, resturants, bowling ally, etc.

JTA Hub - Transportation center attracting new appartments.

DT needs a few key projects to really start -  Barnett and Trio - I think organic growth will follow in DT also.

[thelakelander]

lol.

if youre at the one consolidated retail development downtown and don't like the establishments that do not cater to anything other than someone who needs toothpaste or a happy meal, you could walk several miles to check out the few disconnected islands of entertainment we have down town.  same thing!

Other than IAW, the places I named are within a two to three block walk of the Landing.  I can name many more that would like the additional business.  There's also vacant retail spots along that walk that should be filled with additional businesses.  Ideally, a vibrant downtown setting will be a walkable one. So the Landing should be one of many viable choices people can select to spend their time and money in, within a compact urban setting.

if you commissioned a market study for 5pts by an out of town co. who knew nothing of the area, what would they come back with?  Certainly not what's there.  We need vision, and not sleiman's

Why waste time and money doing another publicly financed market study?  Very few established business need publicly financed market studies to tell them when the market is ready for their investment.  Btw, vision and cherry picking business establishments are two different things.  It's not up to us to decide who's worthy of investing in downtown. We have enough vacant space for anyone willing to invest.  Whether it's Hooters or Hawkers shouldn't matter. We're better off worrying about keeping the surrounding streets clean, lights lit and public spaces maintained.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

if you commissioned a market study for 5pts by an out of town co. who knew nothing of the area, what would they come back with?  Certainly not what's there.  We need vision, and not sleiman's

How many businesses failed in order for us to get where we are in 5 points now?

The point being that any 'study' is going to come back with proven winners.  You don't think 5 points would be just as bustling if you replaced some of the unique stores with more recognizable 'brands'?  I'm willing to bet it would, just like any other busy commercial corridor in the USA. 

The fact that we have thriving, unique stores there didn't happen overnight, but the difference with 5 points and the Landing is that people are going to pass through 5 points regardless, not too many people just 'pass through' the Landing.   I'm willing to bet that you could take the same mix of shops from 5 points, magically move them to storefronts in the Landing, and the Landing would be just as dead and what appear to be thriving businesses would be shutting their doors within a year. 

Management isn't as much an issue, IMO, as daily foot traffic.

[Adam White]

if you commissioned a market study for 5pts by an out of town co. who knew nothing of the area, what would they come back with?  Certainly not what's there.  We need vision, and not sleiman's

How many businesses failed in order for us to get where we are in 5 points now?

The point being that any 'study' is going to come back with proven winners.  You don't think 5 points would be just as bustling if you replaced some of the unique stores with more recognizable 'brands'?  I'm willing to bet it would, just like any other busy commercial corridor in the USA. 

The fact that we have thriving, unique stores there didn't happen overnight, but the difference with 5 points and the Landing is that people are going to pass through 5 points regardless, not too many people just 'pass through' the Landing.   I'm willing to bet that you could take the same mix of shops from 5 points, magically move them to storefronts in the Landing, and the Landing would be just as dead and what appear to be thriving businesses would be shutting their doors within a year. 

Management isn't as much an issue, IMO, as daily foot traffic.

And daily foot traffic isn't likely to increase without the Landing being part of something larger. Like more restaurants and shops (or offices and other businesses or even residences) in the area. You could pack the Landing with the best possible performers and it would likely still struggle. Might do better than it does now - but I recall how it was busy when it opened. But it died after the novelty wore off.

5 Points is in the heart of a relatively dense neighborhood. The Landing is in the middle of close to nothing.

[jlmann]

would 5pts be what it is today with a mcdonalds and cvs etc?

Of course not.  That ranks as one of the more insane things ive read in some time.  Its the opposite! The fact that it isn't filled with crap readily available in the burbs is exactly why it draws people in from surrounding areas and is the city's hotspot.  It's why people go to the beaches town center.  Its why King St has been revitalized.  What market study would tell you to line a mostly vacant street in an area with a lot of low incomes with bars where others have failed?

If you want what yall describe there are hundreds of places outside the core to find it.  Why on earth would you drive in from mandarin to go to a chiles?

so if you fill the landing with more of whats there and add to it with, oooohhhhh, a CVS what market does that serve?  The residents downtown?  Oh yeah. 

Market studies and plans that meet your checklist from Intro to Planning have done so well for Jax.   Of course people will come to hang out at our awesome sports complex to hang out when there aren't events.  Because consultants!  Random, but also reminds me of our whole foods- makes so much sense right?  market study shows its in a place that will pull in sooo many to this destination store.  and yet it is one of the worst, if not the worst performing whole foods in the country.

the fresh market in Brooklyn probably makes sense on paper.  But its not a great fit for the neighborhood.  Which is why its empty with the exception of lunch and half the fresh items are past due.   

I'm sure you guys have a spot on idea of how to approach this in a manner that would delight a planning conference.  it just wont add anything of value to Jacksonville and reinforce our image as a cultural void.

[jlmann]

5 pts is not that dense and the population has not increased with the reviltalization and certainly cant be named a factor.  What's been built?  Brooklyn doesn't count as much as they market it as being in riverside

virtually no one lives east of 5pts.  the 3 towers of old folks convalescing shouldn't count.  then outside of the bell and 1661 its equal in density to most burbs as it is all single family with duplexes etc mixed in.

riverside's population hasn't grown and yet it has become something great.  maybe we should pay attention

[fieldafm]

would 5pts be what it is today with a mcdonalds and cvs etc?

Of course not.  That ranks as one of the more insane things ive read in some time.  Its the opposite! The fact that it isn't filled with crap readily available in the burbs is exactly why it draws people in from surrounding areas and is the city's hotspot.  It's why people go to the beaches town center.  Its why King St has been revitalized.  What market study would tell you to line a mostly vacant street in an area with a lot of low incomes with bars where others have failed?

If you want what yall describe there are hundreds of places outside the core to find it.  Why on earth would you drive in from mandarin to go to a chiles?

so if you fill the landing with more of whats there and add to it with, oooohhhhh, a CVS what market does that serve?  The residents downtown?  Oh yeah. 

Market studies and plans that meet your checklist from Intro to Planning have done so well for Jax.   Of course people will come to hang out at our awesome sports complex to hang out when there aren't events.  Because consultants!  Random, but also reminds me of our whole foods- makes so much sense right?  market study shows its in a place that will pull in sooo many to this destination store.  and yet it is one of the worst, if not the worst performing whole foods in the country.

the fresh market in Brooklyn probably makes sense on paper.  But its not a great fit for the neighborhood.  Which is why its empty with the exception of lunch and half the fresh items are past due.   

I'm sure you guys have a spot on idea of how to approach this in a manner that would delight a planning conference.  it just wont add anything of value to Jacksonville and reinforce our image as a cultural void.

Sounds like you are just angry at everything (because 'but Sleiman').. but to inject some facts into your rants:

-5 Points has had a McDonalds and a CVS my entire life (I turn 40 soon), in the form of Wendys and Carters Pharmacy. The Shell gas station on Post/Margaret has been around as long as I remember, and the 7-11 (where a Hardees fast food chain formerly operated) does sufficient business for the franchisee to now own multiple 7-11 franchises.  King Street has both a 'McDonalds and a CVS' in the form of Walgreens and Burger King.

-A CVS downtown would serve the substantial weekday working population, the roughly 3,000 residents downtown that use the 7-11 on Forsyth (which is a very profitable store) and the visitors downtown that don't have a C-store they can stop into for needed supplies. As a point of comparison, when Sundries inside the Landing closed (the proprietor retired), a significant drop in foot traffic was reported by merchants.  So yes, there is a need and a market for a CVS. 

-The Fresh Market in Brooklyn is performing significantly above their projections.


-Sleiman!  Consultants!  Planners!  Real Estate People!!  AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!

[jlmann]

oh my lord.  I said I didn't think fresh market was a great fit, they did most of their business at lunch w nonresidents and accordingly their fresh items are going bad and not removed.  Take a decent produce list one night and you'll see.  But yeah they may be beating estimates which is great for corporate wherever theyre located

There is a need for a cvs or the like downtown.  It shouldn't be a focus of the landing redevelopment.  I know it a super complex concept for these 2 statements to be able to both be true in the same universe

the 7-11 was last a pizza palace prior to the change only a few short years ago and has had little to no impact of 5 pts.  Its there because of the revitalization- it had no part in it

the wendys and pharmancy and gas station were there for decades before things turned around for riverside.  thereby actually proving my point: a neighborhood can need and have basic amenities, but they do not cause a neighborhood to become vibrant.  even if you claim they do you're looking at a lead time in the decades based on that example

And when has the consultant set given us anything that's worked out well for the jax core?  the san marco redesign was pretty good, but that just enhanced an already vibrant area

[Captain Zissou]

virtually no one lives east of 5pts.  the 3 towers of old folks convalescing shouldn't count.  then outside of the bell and 1661 its equal in density to most burbs as it is all single family with duplexes etc mixed in.

Exactly where are these dense suburbs you're talking about here?? 

[jlmann]

I realize theres a difference, but the areas of only residential streets just arent that dense and there's more commercial mixed in than a burby neighborhood.  I don't know how the factor in kids to a density calculation but there is also a big difference in the demo- way more singles, empty nesters and retirees in riverside.

new areas in nocatee and develpments of that sort look about the same.  because theyre mimicking places like riverside.

there are probably specific spots in the southside/jtb/sjtc area with a comparable density given the droves of 300-400 unit apt complexes. because riverside isn't very big

and again: the simple fact is riverside blew up when people from other parts of town showed up to hang out.  the population isn't that dense and it hasn't changed either

[jlmann]

pretty consistent density around jax:

https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=3327e6cc84a84d7194437d7904fb64b3

[thelakelander]

Riverside "blew up" when people started moving and reinvesting in historic pedestrian friendly communities across the country.  This trend was happening well before I came to town in 2003.  There's also been a change in retailing and dining trends.  Five Points and Park & King are examples of two districts that have changed in recent years, as a result of the market.  No publicly financed market study was needed to draw Hawkers, M Shack, Hoptinger, 7-Eleven, Publix or any of the other businesses that have opened in the vicinity.  However, I'm not sure what a neighborhood commercial district comprised of multiple property owners, like Five Points, San Marco Square, Edgewood Avenue or Main Street, has to do with the Landing's situation.  This is about as much of an apples to oranges comparison that one can make, if attempting to base the argument on market dynamics.

[thelakelander]

pretty consistent density around jax:

https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=3327e6cc84a84d7194437d7904fb64b3

^Most second tier american cities don't have many census tracts of +10,000 residents/square mile.  Jacksonville doesn't look much different from Atlanta, Tampa or Orlando at that scale. You'll get more variation breaking things down at 5,000/square mile.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/census/2010/map.html

^It appears the site isn't functional anymore but here's a screen shot from the interactive NY Times 2010 Census map of Jacksonville's census tracts by population density:



http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-dec-jacksonvilles-densest-neighborhoods

Unfortunately, because the map appears not to be working, you can't edit the layers to reflect other demographics, such as employment density, growth percentage, etc.

[jlmann]

I was pointing out that the offerings of 5pts are what the landing should be targeting as part of the redevelopment plan that does not include sleiman.

others nit picked my musing on 5pts and I responded.  specifically to the point about density being responsible.

in my mind riverside "blew up" 5-7 yrs ago and really in the last few years- the arrival of hawkers saw things go to the next level in 5pts and its continued ever sense.  also the remaking of walkers into the garage was a turning point for nightlife in the hood.  but your point is fair that broader trends certainly helped.  the publix really helped that trend get traction.

but it wasn't so long ago 5pts was mostly vacant/the stuff that was there was crap.  anyway a publix or the like closer to the river would be awesome.  winn Dixie or harveys or whatever isn't going to cut it for anyone who want to live DT side of beaver/union.  we need a separate development with the basics in conjunction with something with some culture and a soul at the landing.  this isn't a chance to get a cvs on the river.  think about all the cities you love.  I'm guessing you know what I mean when I say they got soul- a specific "ness" that you just feel.  jax doesn't have it.  strip centers wont do it.

having lived in riverside long enough to see all this happens gives me some conviction that the population # hasn't changed that much.  Demographics maybe, sure.  But there has never been a large number of unoccupied residential and the additions since were hardly game changers.

what it has to do with the landing is it reveals what people want in the area of dining and entertainment

which is not anywhere close to these beauties:
http://www.sleiman.com/LeasingInformation/MandarinProperties.aspx

look through those properties.  that should be case closed on whether sleiman's involvement is good for the landing.  the guy has never done anything interesting or high end or in an urban setting

But hey maybe we can get a Bealls, a vape shop and a 2nd subway downtown at least!  In 25 years itll be popping off

[jlmann]

http://www.sleiman.com/LeasingInformation/SouthsideBaymeadowsProperties/SleimanBuilding.aspx

lol nice sleiman bldg.  what a talent!  what refined taste!