Transit in Jacksonville, Let's Get Started!

[alta]

This seems like a great plan.  Commuter rail to the less dense suburban areas.  Light rail to San Marco, Riverside, Springfield, Ortega, Metro North,  maybe eventually to the Airport.  The densities here will only increase and further drive transite ridership.

[stjohnsguy]

Clay to Jax commute 38 minutes??? It took me 45 minutes to go 7 miles on Blanding just to get to I-295 each day 10 years ago....that is why I moved to St Johns.WAKE UP JTA...The time for planning has passed.Time for Action!!!!

[BridgeTroll]

Now the city and adjacent counties need to start a public awareness campaign to get the word out and bring the general public on board.  There must be a general consensus out there to generate a critical mass of public opinion to make this happen.  The time to begin educating and trying to change Duvals attitudes about mass transit is NOW.

[Lunican]

Amtrak currently does the run from Orange Park to Downtown Jacksonville in 14 minutes.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/371/

[Jason]

There's an Amtrack station in OP?

[Lunican]

No. It goes right by.

[Jason]

Man, in the short term, imagine what Amtrak could do for OP once they move the Jax station downtown.

[Murjax]

I like the idea, but I think we need more than a commuter rail using the existing track. We need options to connect the Southside and the Beaches, which are one of Jacksonville's busiest areas. I suggest we strive for a system similar to that of Washington, DC. They have commuter railroads extending to the north and south, and closer to and within the city, they have a subway type system called Metro. From what I understand, this system was built in the 70s using funds initially planned to be used on a mass highway system. They started with 3 lines, eventually expanded to 5, and now plan to build two more. The system seems to be very effective and is one of the only systems that was actually built from scratch rather than relying on existing tracks. As a major city that has a larger population than Washington, I think we need to build at least 3 subway lines. 1 from Downtown to Jacksonville Beach following JTB (This will help serve St Johns Town Center as well as Ponte Vedra better), 1 from Downtown to Atlantic Beach via Atlantic Blvd (this will serve the Regency area better as well as the northern beaches), and 1 from Downtown to the Avenues or Mandarin or both. A better system would also include a line from Downtown to Orange Park and a line from Downtown to the airport. Yes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day. I don't know how much money was needed to build the original 3 lines of the Washington Metro, but considering it came from original highway expansion plans, which Jacksonville has also been doing recently, I can see this as a possibility.

[thelakelander]

I like the idea, but I think we need more than a commuter rail using the existing track. We need options to connect the Southside and the Beaches, which are one of Jacksonville's busiest areas. I suggest we strive for a system similar to that of Washington, DC. They have commuter railroads extending to the north and south, and closer to and within the city, they have a subway type system called Metro. From what I understand, this system was built in the 70s using funds initially planned to be used on a mass highway system. They started with 3 lines, eventually expanded to 5, and now plan to build two more.

DC's Metrorail is a heavy rail subway system.  This is something that is out of Jax's league when considering urban density, soil conditions and monetary concerns.  That's not a fault against Jax though, it will be a long time before we see another American city construct a heavy rail system from scratch.  Nevertheless, DC's system was built over decades and is still in the midst of expansion.  The subway began operations in 1976, MARC commuter rail in 1984 and VRE commuter rail in 1992.  The best thing we can take from DC is to acknowledge that we have to start small and expand. Taking advantage of an available rail line or two to implement a starter line is a great way to move forward without breaking the bank.

The system seems to be very effective and is one of the only systems that was actually built from scratch rather than relying on existing tracks. As a major city that has a larger population than Washington, I think we need to build at least 3 subway lines.

DC is actually significantly larger and denser than Jacksonville.  Sometimes this gets lost because we include most of our county population as our city number due to consolidation.  However, when we look at urban area numbers, we can compare apples to apples.

DC urban area population census 2000: 3,933,920
DC urban area population density census 2000: 3,400.8

Jacksonville urban area population census 2000: 882,295
Jacksonville urban area population density census 2000: 2,149.2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Urban_Areas_%26_Urban_Clusters

1 from Downtown to Jacksonville Beach following JTB (This will help serve St Johns Town Center as well as Ponte Vedra better), 1 from Downtown to Atlantic Beach via Atlantic Blvd (this will serve the Regency area better as well as the northern beaches), and 1 from Downtown to the Avenues or Mandarin or both. A better system would also include a line from Downtown to Orange Park and a line from Downtown to the airport. Yes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day. I don't know how much money was needed to build the original 3 lines of the Washington Metro, but considering it came from original highway expansion plans, which Jacksonville has also been doing recently, I can see this as a possibility.

Based on our density levels, urban area population numbers and the paths that similar sized and larger cities have taken, if we go rail, its going to be either streetcar, light, commuter rail or a mix of all three.

[ProjectMaximus]

And on top of the population numbers...we're not the capital of the country!!! If the US govt convened in Jacksonville, FL, then maybe we'd get something done around here.

...then again, maybe not.

[Ocklawaha]

MURJAX, Welcome aboard our train! I'm the resident Transportation Consultant (Navy-Airline-Motor Coach-RAIL background) here and we have a couple of railroaders, some hidden DOT, FDOT, JTA and political types as well as Lakelander our resident Urban Planner. Love to have your input. 

Yes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day.

As The Lakelander didn't address this point I will: Current studies show the CSX "A" line south along Roosevelt, the FEC line along Philips and the CSX Yulee line along North Main Street as the primary targets for a starter system.

1. Traffic on the CSX Roosevelt is fairly good even into Clay County to Green Cove Springs, and that model only considers 1 mile from the station with NO CONNECTING TRANSIT and it doesn't consider things like NAS or Airports etc... Still, even running this early model, we get a good commuter line. Back in the day, this was mostly double track, the right of way will still handle another track if needs be. Meanwhile the state plans to move the freight traffic off of this route as early as next year. The leaves it wide open for us and Amtrak to make a first class commuter link from it. In the old days it handled perhaps 4 -5 times the number of trains + as many as 10 passenger trains daily. Freights were shorter then and much lighter. Today the same railroad handles many x more tons but way less traffic. This means there are many more time slots to work with.

2. The FEC uses a SFT or SHORT-FAST-TRAIN concept, as soon as they get the transfers over the river they block them by city in Bowden yard and get them out of town. So traffic is frequent. Likewise, this is a good and balanced corridor using the same early model system. Even without the Avenues, St. Augustine Airport, Nocatee etc... it's coming in good. FEC is justified in worry over capacity issues, a second track once ran the entire east coast of Florida, so again, the right-of-way is in place. Add some capacity, even more and longer sidings, some signals, and a few overpasses such as St. Augustine Road or Sunbeam and they'd be onboard.

3. The Northside is missing the first 3-4 miles of track, and the city owns the key right-of-way. This is no slouch either as it is the former mainline of the old Seaboard Air Line Railroad - parent road of both of todays Amtrak Silver Star/Silver Meteor trains. After the Coast Line merger it was cut in half between Jax and Savannah, leaving our line as a switching track to South Georgia and Fernandina or the port. A new CSX plan to build a cut off from the Port North of the Airport to the line near Callahan, will leave the entire urban portion of this line more-or-less empty. If the City buys the remaining track, we could even build Light Rail on it, and lease the rights to night-time freight back to the railroads as a independent terminal company. The models on this line are FANTASTIC, until the Dunn Avenue-Airport roads, then it just drops to nothing.

As the second models are run, which WILL show connections, and major points along the routes, I'm confident that these 3 will all make the cut. In fact, don't be surprised it Baldwin-Macclenny or Starke-Gainesville come out with a couple of daily trips too. This is easy to do with trains. For example if one trip started in Gainesville, one in Macclenny and another at Baldwin, all three lines converge at Baldwin. So by staggering the trains, in the urban core, Baldwin - Downtown you'd have 6 daily commute trains (3 each way).

Most of the models are showing service at 30 minute headways.

Once this is up and running, we need to expand downtown options with the Skyway, and Streetcar lines. There might also be options for connecting Trolley or BRT buses on JTB, Atlantic etc that tie into rail. One thing for sure, the revolution is on!

OCKLAWAHA

[Murjax]

MURJAX, Welcome aboard our train! I'm the resident Transportation Consultant (Navy-Airline-Motor Coach-RAIL background) here and we have a couple of railroaders, some hidden DOT, FDOT, JTA and political types as well as Lakelander our resident Urban Planner. Love to have your input. 

Yes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day.

As The Lakelander didn't address this point I will: Current studies show the CSX "A" line south along Roosevelt, the FEC line along Philips and the CSX Yulee line along North Main Street as the primary targets for a starter system.

1. Traffic on the CSX Roosevelt is fairly good even into Clay County to Green Cove Springs, and that model only considers 1 mile from the station with NO CONNECTING TRANSIT and it doesn't consider things like NAS or Airports etc... Still, even running this early model, we get a good commuter line. Back in the day, this was mostly double track, the right of way will still handle another track if needs be. Meanwhile the state plans to move the freight traffic off of this route as early as next year. The leaves it wide open for us and Amtrak to make a first class commuter link from it. In the old days it handled perhaps 4 -5 times the number of trains + as many as 10 passenger trains daily. Freights were shorter then and much lighter. Today the same railroad handles many x more tons but way less traffic. This means there are many more time slots to work with.

2. The FEC uses a SFT or SHORT-FAST-TRAIN concept, as soon as they get the transfers over the river they block them by city in Bowden yard and get them out of town. So traffic is frequent. Likewise, this is a good and balanced corridor using the same early model system. Even without the Avenues, St. Augustine Airport, Nocatee etc... it's coming in good. FEC is justified in worry over capacity issues, a second track once ran the entire east coast of Florida, so again, the right-of-way is in place. Add some capacity, even more and longer sidings, some signals, and a few overpasses such as St. Augustine Road or Sunbeam and they'd be onboard.

3. The Northside is missing the first 3-4 miles of track, and the city owns the key right-of-way. This is no slouch either as it is the former mainline of the old Seaboard Air Line Railroad - parent road of both of todays Amtrak Silver Star/Silver Meteor trains. After the Coast Line merger it was cut in half between Jax and Savannah, leaving our line as a switching track to South Georgia and Fernandina or the port. A new CSX plan to build a cut off from the Port North of the Airport to the line near Callahan, will leave the entire urban portion of this line more-or-less empty. If the City buys the remaining track, we could even build Light Rail on it, and lease the rights to night-time freight back to the railroads as a independent terminal company. The models on this line are FANTASTIC, until the Dunn Avenue-Airport roads, then it just drops to nothing.

As the second models are run, which WILL show connections, and major points along the routes, I'm confident that these 3 will all make the cut. In fact, don't be surprised it Baldwin-Macclenny or Starke-Gainesville come out with a couple of daily trips too. This is easy to do with trains. For example if one trip started in Gainesville, one in Macclenny and another at Baldwin, all three lines converge at Baldwin. So by staggering the trains, in the urban core, Baldwin - Downtown you'd have 6 daily commute trains (3 each way).

Most of the models are showing service at 30 minute headways.

Once this is up and running, we need to expand downtown options with the Skyway, and Streetcar lines. There might also be options for connecting Trolley or BRT buses on JTB, Atlantic etc that tie into rail. One thing for sure, the revolution is on!

OCKLAWAHA

I like the plan. It gives much better options for getting into town than we have now.  The sooner we can do this, the better. Traffic seems to get worse year after year as new areas develop. I agree with Thelakelander. We need to start at a normal pace and not break the bank, but we need a plan for better transit options in the Beaches, Southside, and Arlington areas within the next 10 years or less. A simple line from Downtown to Regency Square Mall would help. We don't need to build all the way to the beaches in 1 year, but it needs to be part of the plan.

if we go rail, its going to be either streetcar, light, commuter rail or a mix of all three.

Where do you propose putting this? I can't imagine where it would fit in the Arlington area. It's all built up. Many light rails, including Baltimore's, were started on either existing track, or existing right of ways, although I think some were built from scratch where there was land available. This is why I proposed a subway. Land availability isn't an issue.

This is something that is out of Jax's league when considering urban density, soil conditions and monetary concerns.

We only need to build where the urban population is densest first. Traffic west of Regency Square Mall tends to be really tight and it's starting to get tight east of there. I don't see how soil conditions are a problem. Tunnels of various sorts have been built in all conditions around the world. They have even been built underwater and even in Florida. It would also probably also be easier to construct tunnels under the St Johns River for this rather than having to construct a complicated bridge for it. Any bridge would have to be high so it doesn't interfere with boat traffic, and trains can't climb at the same rate as a car unless you build a San Francisco trolley type system which has cables underneath the track helping it climb.

[thelakelander]

A subway is too expensive, which is why we don't see cities building them from scratch anymore.  I don't know what the ridership numbers are to the beach, but I would assume in the long run we would need either BRT or light rail tying that area into the rest of the regional mass transit network.  If its BRT, we could simply run it down Atlantic, Beach or JTB.  If its light rail, it will probably be a mix of these streets and some utility easements Ock has mentioned in the past.

[Ocklawaha]

I like the plan. It gives much better options for getting into town than we have now.  The sooner we can do this, the better. Traffic seems to get worse year after year as new areas develop. I agree with Thelakelander. We need to start at a normal pace and not break the bank, but we need a plan for better transit options in the Beaches, Southside, and Arlington areas within the next 10 years or less. A simple line from Downtown to Regency Square Mall would help. We don't need to build all the way to the beaches in 1 year, but it needs to be part of the plan.


Quote
if we go rail, its going to be either streetcar, light, commuter rail or a mix of all three.
Where do you propose putting this? I can't imagine where it would fit in the Arlington area. It's all built up. Many light rails, including Baltimore's, were started on either existing track, or existing right of ways, although I think some were built from scratch where there was land available. This is why I proposed a subway. Land availability isn't an issue.
Quote
This is something that is out of Jax's league when considering urban density, soil conditions and monetary concerns.
We only need to build where the urban population is densest first. Traffic west of Regency Square Mall tends to be really tight and it's starting to get tight east of there. I don't see how soil conditions are a problem. Tunnels of various sorts have been built in all conditions around the world. They have even been built underwater and even in Florida. It would also probably also be easier to construct tunnels under the St Johns River for this rather than having to construct a complicated bridge for it. Any bridge would have to be high so it doesn't interfere with boat traffic, and trains can't climb at the same rate as a car unless you build a San Francisco trolley type system which has cables underneath the track helping it climb.

The Beaches and Arlington are part of the plan.

Im sure any LRT or Rapid Streetcar to the Beach would use current Right of Way. Freeway, highway, medians or electric transmission lines. Land is less an issue with LRT then with BRT, or Florida Subway.

It would certainly built in phases.

Tunnels are the most expensive options in transportation. With soft gound and soft bedrock, the tunnels here would have to be built with cut-and-cover. This would involve a trench project something like the Arlington Expressway in size. Dirt would be removed, walls have to be reinforced and ground water pumped or sealed. VERY COSTLY and messy. A cement box is either cast at the site or pre-cast and lowered into the site, then you refill and replant everything. BILLIONS on BILLIONS. IF (which we don't have shy of 15,000 feet down) we had a hardrock base, Tunnel boring machines could be used in a much safer atmosphere.

OCKLAWAHA

[apvbguy]

A subway is too expensive, which is why we don't see cities building them from scratch anymore. 

actually NYC is build a new line along 2nd ave now, it was in the planning stages for over 50 years. A subway doesn't seem to be in JAX's future for many reasons, cost is just the biggest one.
Regarding the beaches, a BRT (something which is a terrible concept) isn't needed, what needs to be determined first is what level of service is needed and then if warranted use express buses that pick up in few stops at the beaches and makes a loop around the core.