Top Ten Lame Reasons to Delay Mass Transit in Jax

[simms3]

Lakelander, you are very fair and balanced haha, but way too often extremely liberal discussion and views and conservative bashing comes out from several of the writers of this site and many of the posters, and while there is nothing technically wrong with that, why have all the hate.  All of these issues are truly non-partisan, just because one is a democrat, or socialist lol, or atheist, or whatever, does not mean one has to hate or constantly criticize the other side.  If this site wants to attract more fans and readers, do not bash half the potential.  I have always been a fan and promoted this site to family and friends, most of whom are conservative.  They really all like the site, but have mentioned to me a couple characters on here who are almost offensive to them and so I know that they just do not keep track as much as the could (or should haha).

[downtownparks]

I have to tell you simms, I dont see it.

[Lunican]

There is some liberal and conservative bashing going on in the politics section of the forum, but the articles published on the site do not contain any of that. I think people need to understand there is a distinction between the articles published and the comments posted by readers.

[Doctor_K]

^ Agree, Lunican.

It's like watching two rival wrestling stables posture and position, then let loose during the Main Event.  The verbal Battle Royal matches that invariably erupt make me glad I've got ready access to microwave popcorn so I can munch while enjoying the match and the drama unfold.

Simms3 - some of the freedoms we enjoy in this country are A) the ability to elect our leaders, and B) the guaranteed freedom-of-speech right to criticize them and their leadership openly.  Are politics too-often involved?  Probably.  It's par for the course though.  Left-wingers, Communists, Socialists, and self-styled 'Progressives' are just as good at it and guilty of it as are Right-wingers, Libertarians, Neo- and Paleo-conservatives.  It's not ideal, but it's reality.

The Mayor has been, at the end of the day, not very effective in terms of his leadership.  As mentioned on another thread, yes - he's done some good things.  The childrens' reading program is a good thing. 

But being practically silent on issues like mass transit, the fabric and character of the urban core, crime - not to mention being guilty of playing politics (like almost EVERY other politician in the history of the planet; at all points along the political spectrum) - has not endeared himself to a significant portion of the population who are NOT politically apathetic.   

Thus, threads like this develop.  I have nothing personal against the mayor.  On a personal level, he's never done anything to me.  On a polticial level, he's not been stellar.  I voted for him, so I feel I have a right to criticize should I feel the urge.

[stjohnsguy]

As other areas of Florida become built out.Jacksonville will only grow faster leading to more congestion.My plan would turn the Convention Center into a Transportation Hub.The main structure would support light rail and Amtrack.Next to the skyway, connected by a concourse from the main terminal would be a ground transportation hub.With a JTA Hub for buses and a new Greyhound terminal.Also there would be an electric street car line running from Union station along Water and Bay street to Jaguar Stadium.This would the key to bring business to this area.We can not wait till the Jacksonville area is bursting at the seems to have a Plan....Portland Oregon (a city with a similar population) has done a wonderful job with transportation.  OUR LEADERS COULD LEARN A LOT FROM THEM!!!!http://portlandmall.org/video/simulation/index.htm

[jacksonvilleconfidential]

Optimus Prime Osbourne approves of the transportation hub idea.



http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2008/06/optimus-prime-convention-center.html

[alta]

I don't see this website as being political.  Everyone on here seems to want a better city and hold the politicians accountable and have them view planning from a different perspective rather than from the automobile and suburbs.  I listen to talk radio when I am at work.  I have never heard them talk about mass transit.  They do talk frequently about government waste.  Transit will always be subsidized and operate at a big loss.  If we had a well planned system like the Metro in D.C. you would have "preferred riders" as JTA calls them using mass transit in Jacksonville.  These are people that would normally drive a car but take mass transit because it is cost effective and convenient.  A transit system that is poorly planned will be critisized by moderates or conservatives because basically all you are doing is shifting ridership from bus to rail.  You aren't taking any cars off the road!!!  If you are taking people of the road from the people that will never use mass transiit it will be an easier sell.  In Jacksonville you are not taking any cars off the road because the system doesn't offer Transit Oriented Development or stations where people work or live.  They still have to drive to the station, take transit and then transfer when they get to their location.  It is to much of a hassle.  They would rather drive even if it cost $4.00/gallon.  Ironically the most expensive real estate in D.C. is located near the Metro stations.  They are setting all time ridership records.  I checked their website a few days ago.  They are consistently averaging 800,000 plus on rail and another 400,000 on bus.  The skyway is averaging 1-2k riders a day.  That is embarassing.  Decisions on infastructure and public facilities in D.C. are always located near Metro stations.  Anyone who has not used their system it is in my opinion the best in the country.  Both rail and bus operate on frequent schedules.  You can get where you want to go efficiently.  The system operate at a loss but much less than most other transit agencies.  JTA is a complete waste of taxpayer money.  The consultant JTA has hired.  If you chat with him when he doesn't have his talking points in front of him he is pretty reasonable.  Maybe MetroJacksonville should hire him to endorse rail and TOD.

[JeffreyS]

Transit will always be subsidized and operate at a big loss. 

Remember roads are always the biggest subsidized segment of transit.

[alta]

Yep!  I almost put that in my comments.

[Ocklawaha]

Transit will always be subsidized and operate at a big loss.  If we had a well planned system like the Metro in D.C. you would have "preferred riders" as JTA calls them using mass transit in Jacksonville.  These are people that would normally drive a car but take mass transit because it is cost effective and convenient.

Preferred riders, quality riders, or choice riders, it isn't JTA speak, it is industry-speak for ANYONE that would normally use an automobile, but becomes a convert to mass transit. It does NOT mean that any one person, group or social status is preferred over another, as people of all stripes own cars. It is simply a gauge to say how many cars stayed in the garage due to quality transit. In Jacksonville, we need to work much harder to attract them whatever you want to call them.

Federal Spending by mode:
2003 (In Millions of Dollars)

Total  66,877 
Highway 30,886 
Transit 8,244 
Rail   1,264 
Air 13,938 
Water  5,925 
Pipeline  63 
General Support  6,557 

You can buy a whole lot of tugboats for each Amtrak Engine you get

By the way, also a Christian - but secure enough not to worry about small stuff... WWJD maybe build the church right across the street from the bar? club? bordello? After all, wouldn't it be great if some of "them" wandered inside?

OCKLAWAHA

[AndyB]

For those of you who mis-read my comment...please read it again. I did not say alchohol should be restricted did I? I believe I qualified it by saying it was my opinion that one should not equate progressiveness with alchohol. (Perhaps it is my own personal experience that drives that point home with me.) I understand alcohol is available everywhere in this city, including the suburbs. I am not promoting a ban on alcohol downtown. I don't know that it is a sin to drink...I have an occasional beer myself. I did not raise that point. It's not my place to judge.

I simply believe that having a downtown that is family friendly is going to attract more people to the downtown area than one that is lined with nightclubs and pubs. Is that a bad thing? Is the downtown lifestyle restricted to the young single elite or do you want it to be a place where all people feel welcome and comfortable?

My main point was not this at all. My main point was to take your very good arguments for light rail and trolley systems to the mediums where people where hear them. I tried to find a local radio station that airs local issues and was not very successful. That is too bad. Perhaps if people stuck on I-95 or I-10 heard about this it would gain great momentum. How about billboards?

I will clarify one other point I made. There are many conservatives and many Christians that have influence on the make-up of this town.  That is not a point of argument - it is fact. One way to make an impact on those people is to respect their opinion and ideas, not trash them like I have seen so many times on this website. Don't alienate the very people you will need on your side to make these changes happen.

I enjoy this site. I want you to make the changes you are advocating and I want to help. Keep up the good fight!

AndyB

[downtownparks]

Fair enough. Sorry to jump :-)

I think your point is a fair one. Entertainment is but one aspect. Places to live would be another. Low income, medium income, high income.

Nice parks for those residents to use. Dog parks, recreations parks, decorative parks with plantings and statues. Streets lined with interesting things and places to look at. Stores, restaurants, gyms, lounges, bars, studios, whatever, you name it.

The trick to being vibrant isnt as simple as pubs, its multi faceted, and attainable by people from all walks of life.

[Coolyfett]

I am a Christian and I am a conservative radio listener. Two labels that I feel are two strikes against me in this very liberal discussion site. However, I think you will find that most conservatives and Christians are not opposed to light rail or public transportation. Many of us would in fact support light rail. There is nothing liberal about supporting your city and it's economic viability. People with common sense know it is the only way a city will prosper. I do question equating a "progressive downtown" with alchohol. That's just my opinion.
Perhaps you and those who I think do a very good job of voicing your outstanding ideas and opinions regarding the much needed change in this city on this website should take your argument to where people might hear it. Like I said, I listen to talk radio sometimes. I don't know if there is a local issues radio station currently. There used to be.  That might be a start. You are right on with your ideas but you are preaching to the choir on this website.
Find a medium to take your ideas to. Ock, Lake and the rest of you, I commend you for your reasonableness and I appreciate this website...take it to the next level, whatever it may be. Time to get rid of our mayor. I would even vote for a Dem if he had a vision.

Hey Andy..I didn't see anything in there about Christians? I agree the "heads" of this site should hit other outlets, but I think most of them have tried. It always seemed to me that the "powers that be" in Jacksonville are some how connected. And I think they protect each other from the progressive "MetroJax.com types" Its just seems certain things that are NEVER EVER criticized in that city of Jacksonville, things that a lot people have issues with, only to be told you don't like it move. Examples: JTA, First Baptist control of downtown, Flordia Gator coverage vs Jacksonville Jaguar coverage, The Mayor's office, The Sheriff's office, Times Union, road work in so called bad neighborhoods that never get fixed even after BJP. Everyone has their list Andy..the list of the PROTECTED names/brands/companies of Jacksonville.

[Coolyfett]

I will clarify one other point I made. There are many conservatives and many Christians that have influence on the make-up of this town.  That is not a point of argument - it is fact. One way to make an impact on those people is to respect their opinion and ideas, not trash them like I have seen so many times on this website. Don't alienate the very people you will need on your side to make these changes happen.
AndyB

What a sec......why should we respect their opinion? Is is because its backwards?? Help me understand this Andy. The people in power need to have their asses kissed to make changes? How do you alienate the MAJORITY? I'm so glad you post here man. Seriously maybe you can help some of US, understand THEM? I don't care about the Christains vs Devilworship or whatever you keep bringing up christians for, but man people with vision and the ability to make the future better for Jax need to be in power, not Billy Bob's nephew n dem. The Leaders need to be thinkers and doers. Rich boy from long money times 12 runs the city and the city's counsel, they live in Mandarin or Ortega, filling their tank daily is easy, when they want to have REAL FUN they travel, while regular guy is sick of the gas prices, sick of being bored, sick of the same old same old, can't keep up with inflation and all the regular folks are suppose "respect the opinion and ideas" of those that DON'T have any idea??

Heroes in a halfshell. TURTLE POWER!

[uptowngirl]

I will clarify one other point I made. There are many conservatives and many Christians that have influence on the make-up of this town.  That is not a point of argument - it is fact. One way to make an impact on those people is to respect their opinion and ideas, not trash them like I have seen so many times on this website. Don't alienate the very people you will need on your side to make these changes happen.
AndyB

What a sec......why should we respect their opinion? Is is because its backwards?? Help me understand this Andy. The people in power need to have their asses kissed to make changes? How do you alienate the MAJORITY? I'm so glad you post here man. Seriously maybe you can help some of US, understand THEM? I don't care about the Christains vs Devilworship or whatever you keep bringing up christians for, but man people with vision and the ability to make the future better for Jax need to be in power, not Billy Bob's nephew n dem. The Leaders need to be thinkers and doers. Rich boy from long money times 12 runs the city and the city's counsel, they live in Mandarin or Ortega, filling their tank daily is easy, when they want to have REAL FUN they travel, while regular guy is sick of the gas prices, sick of being bored, sick of the same old same old, can't keep up with inflation and all the regular folks are suppose "respect the opinion and ideas" of those that DON'T have any idea??

Heroes in a halfshell. TURTLE POWER!

Light rail rocks! We need it, it should have already been here, and more money should not be wasted on BRT.


Whole point being disagreement and debate can occur with out personal attacks and name calling which happens all to often within the comments here. With the exception of a few "personal wars" I would not include, without fail anyone with a less than liberal opinion is called names and personally attacked. It has happened to me and I am not even conservative! 

Respect the opinion and ideas"
Does not mean you need to agree, just that you should listen, and if you disagree calmly and responsibly debate your position. This can be done without name calling and personal attacks. Take for instance this thread.  AndyB stated he was a conservative Christian, he also stated he didn't think the downtown should revolve around alcohol, several regulars jumped on those comments and made the assumption he wanted to ban alcohol downtown. At least in this case no one called AndyB a name, just assumed they knew what he was all about and ran with it. If some of the other regulars were posting here AndyB would of have been torn apart, called names, and degenerated for being a conservative Christian. If you still don’t see it I would be more than happy to go pull some comments made by "regulars" towards conservative Christians on other threads. While the articles are excellent (got me reading this forum years ago!) and most of the founders are sincere and intelligent there are some that should be curbed if you want any true discussions representing the diverse population of the city.