Downtown Food Truck Park Opening This Week

[thelakelander]

Look, the downtown restaurant is viewed as strong Mon-Fri for lunch. It's not viewed as strong for dinner.

To this point, I'm curious what the reaction to the new food court has been from the brick and mortars downtown who must contend with the above while shouldering the much higher overhead associated with occupying a fixed space. The great food truck vs. brick and mortar debate is so three years ago, and I think most reasonable people would agree that food trucks are a net positive for the community and for downtown vibrancy, but in this particular case, I do have some empathy for the restaurant owners taking a chance on downtown Jacksonville who must now compete daily with four new mini-restaurants, operating in an absolutely prime location, with none of the associated costs or risks they face.

I don't have any empathy.  Successful trucks tend to grow into brick and mortars. The more trucks, placemaking and activation of our dead underutilized spaces, the better chance that our long empty retail storefronts get filled. As for this particular site, if someone believes retail will work here (the trucks only take up half the block), I'm sure the new Suntrust owner would be open to sitting down and possibly ironing out a deal to allow them to build. By the same token, I'm sure the DIA would be willing to consider infill by removing the dead end street between the garage and Independent Drive, if someone was willing to fund a viable proposal.

[JaxJersey-licious]

Look, the downtown restaurant is viewed as strong Mon-Fri for lunch. It's not viewed as strong for dinner.

To this point, I'm curious what the reaction to the new food court has been from the brick and mortars downtown who must contend with the above while shouldering the much higher overhead associated with occupying a fixed space. The great food truck vs. brick and mortar debate is so three years ago, and I think most reasonable people would agree that food trucks are a net positive for the community and for downtown vibrancy, but in this particular case, I do have some empathy for the restaurant owners taking a chance on downtown Jacksonville who must now compete daily with four new mini-restaurants, operating in an absolutely prime location, with none of the associated costs or risks they face.

Yeah, I was curious if the Landing has seen any impact given that those food trucks are practically in their face. Got to give it more time and I hope it can work out so no business would go under unable to compete, but I'm glad the indications are the project is an early success.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Look, the downtown restaurant is viewed as strong Mon-Fri for lunch. It's not viewed as strong for dinner.

To this point, I'm curious what the reaction to the new food court has been from the brick and mortars downtown who must contend with the above while shouldering the much higher overhead associated with occupying a fixed space. The great food truck vs. brick and mortar debate is so three years ago, and I think most reasonable people would agree that food trucks are a net positive for the community and for downtown vibrancy, but in this particular case, I do have some empathy for the restaurant owners taking a chance on downtown Jacksonville who must now compete daily with four new mini-restaurants, operating in an absolutely prime location, with none of the associated costs or risks they face.

I don't have any empathy.  Successful trucks tend to grow into brick and mortars. The more trucks, placemaking and activation of our dead underutilized spaces, the better chance that our long empty retail storefronts get filled. As for this particular site, if someone believes retail will work here (the trucks only take up half the block), I'm sure the new Suntrust owner would be open to sitting down and possibly ironing out a deal to allow them to build. By the same token, I'm sure the DIA would be willing to consider infill by removing the dead end street between the garage and Independent Drive, if someone was willing to fund a viable proposal.

Aren't you basically using the same argument you use FOR fixed rail transportation as an excuse AGAINST holding a developer to their word?  Without the storefronts already there, the expense and upfront costs for a retailer is completely out of the question.  Why would SunTrust have any incentive to gamble on developing now?   

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the nutshell version:
Company A - We want to build a garage.
Review Board- Sure, but you have to add in retail at street level.
C A - Eh, too expensive.  Tell you what, we'll add retail if this building hits this % of occupancy.
RB - Oh sure.  But we're going to hold you to that.
~substantial completion nears, occupancy % has been achieved
C A - We're selling the garage to Company B.  They take on the building, we take the money we were approved for and oh yeah we're not transferring that little deal about the retail. Y'all are gonna have to get that worked out between you guys.  Later.
RB - OK, Company B, what about the retail?
C B - Eh, too expensive.  That deal was with C A, we're just here to run a garage.
COJ Residents - Yay.  Food trucks. 

This is one of the grandest fuckups in the recent history of fuckups.  So, we get a parking garage downtown....errrrr ANOTHER parking garage downtown.  That doesn't serve the Landing, which needs a parking garage BTW, we cowtowed on making the developer provide street-level retail, and we end up with 2 acres of pavement along Hogan Street which, due to the lack of buildings on the other sides of the street, another asphalt desert near the middle of the core. 

But, "yay food trucks".... give me a fucking break.

[thelakelander]

Why would SunTrust have any incentive to gamble on developing now?

The owner has no obligation to build retail at that site. How exactly are you going to force them to do so?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the nutshell version:
Company A - We want to build a garage.
Review Board- Sure, but you have to add in retail at street level.
C A - Eh, too expensive.  Tell you what, we'll add retail if this building hits this % of occupancy.
RB - Oh sure.  But we're going to hold you to that.
~substantial completion nears, occupancy % has been achieved
C A - We're selling the garage to Company B.  They take on the building, we take the money we were approved for and oh yeah we're not transferring that little deal about the retail. Y'all are gonna have to get that worked out between you guys.  Later.
RB - OK, Company B, what about the retail?
C B - Eh, too expensive.  That deal was with C A, we're just here to run a garage.
COJ Residents - Yay.  Food trucks.

Sort of. Where you're off is that nothing in the deal to sell to C B tied them to the C A agreement. That's not a C B problem. It's a fuck up from the deal JEDC put together with C A.

This is one of the grandest fuckups in the recent history of fuckups.  So, we get a parking garage downtown....errrrr ANOTHER parking garage downtown.  That doesn't serve the Landing, which needs a parking garage BTW, we cowtowed on making the developer provide street-level retail, and we end up with 2 acres of pavement along Hogan Street which, due to the lack of buildings on the other sides of the street, another asphalt desert near the middle of the core.

No argument here but the current product has nothing to do with any of the fuck ups mentioned above. They'd still exist even without it.

So, going back to my position, the owner of Suntrust has no obligation to spend money building retail just because a few downtown advocates want it. However, if someone else felt something was viable and was willing to financially back an investment, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. This is essentially what's taking place now. The Suntrust owner didn't propose the food truck park or pay for it. They were approached by an independent party and a deal was created between the two. So, when the day arrives that retail or whatever becomes viable, there's still an opportunity some sort of infill can take place. Just don't get your hopes up high that it will be C B paying for it.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Why would SunTrust have any incentive to gamble on developing now?

The owner has no obligation to build retail at that site. How exactly are you going to force them to do so?

I'm not implying that anything should / can be enforced now.  That ship has sailed.  We agree here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the nutshell version:
Company A - We want to build a garage.
Review Board- Sure, but you have to add in retail at street level.
C A - Eh, too expensive.  Tell you what, we'll add retail if this building hits this % of occupancy.
RB - Oh sure.  But we're going to hold you to that.
~substantial completion nears, occupancy % has been achieved
C A - We're selling the garage to Company B.  They take on the building, we take the money we were approved for and oh yeah we're not transferring that little deal about the retail. Y'all are gonna have to get that worked out between you guys.  Later.
RB - OK, Company B, what about the retail?
C B - Eh, too expensive.  That deal was with C A, we're just here to run a garage.
COJ Residents - Yay.  Food trucks.

Sort of. Where you're off is that nothing in the deal to sell to C B tied them to the C A agreement. That's not a C B problem. It's a fuck up from the deal JEDC put together with C A.

That's exactly what I said.  Again, we're in complete agreement.

This is one of the grandest fuckups in the recent history of fuckups.  So, we get a parking garage downtown....errrrr ANOTHER parking garage downtown.  That doesn't serve the Landing, which needs a parking garage BTW, we cowtowed on making the developer provide street-level retail, and we end up with 2 acres of pavement along Hogan Street which, due to the lack of buildings on the other sides of the street, another asphalt desert near the middle of the core.

No argument here but the current product has nothing to do with any of the fuck ups mentioned above. They'd still exist even without it.

So, going back to my position, the owner of Suntrust has no obligation to spend money building retail just because a few downtown advocates want it. However, if someone else felt something was viable and was willing to financially back an investment, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. This is essentially what's taking place now. The Suntrust owner didn't propose the food truck park or pay for it. They were approached by an independent party and a deal was created between the two. So, when the day arrives that retail or whatever becomes viable, there's still an opportunity some sort of infill can take place. Just don't get your hopes up high that it will be C B paying for it.

I have exactly ZERO hopes and expectations that anything will get developed here more than what we have.  I applaud Mike and Jack for doing what they did to add some semblance of vibrancy to the area and make chicken salad out of a turd.   I still can't wrap my head around how our 'review' boards (you mentioned JEDC, I wasn't sure who) allow such shitty development only for the sake of development.  I mean, I know that someone's getting paid on the backend to make such an assinine decision, but who is it and for the love of baby Jesus and all that is holy, there's got to be more accountability somewhere along the line.

The day for retail in that area is gone.  The upfront costs to build the storefronts, retrofit the bottom floor of the garage, etc. have been driving 3-5x the cost of what it would have taken to build them during the construction of the garage.  The only business model that could make a profit at that location now would be a strip club.  And not MonsVenus or anything remotely nice, due to overhead, but more like a FlashDancers2 - The Other Day Crew.

[thelakelander]

We're pretty much in agreement. The major difference is highlighted in red:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the nutshell version:
Company A - We want to build a garage.
Review Board- Sure, but you have to add in retail at street level.
C A - Eh, too expensive.  Tell you what, we'll add retail if this building hits this % of occupancy.
RB - Oh sure.  But we're going to hold you to that.
~substantial completion nears, occupancy % has been achieved
C A - We're selling the garage to Company B.  They take on the building, we take the money we were approved for and oh yeah we're not transferring that little deal about the retail. Y'all are gonna have to get that worked out between you guys.  Later.
RB - OK, Company B, what about the retail?
C B - Eh, too expensive.  That deal was with C A, we're just here to run a garage.
COJ Residents - Yay.  Food trucks.

The city never tried holding or tying the second company to the original company's agreement.  So we really can't fault the current owner, IMO. Things went off track well before them.

From what I remember back in those days, the DDRB and JEDC would have let C A build the garage up to the street with no retail. Downtown advocates, many of them here, worked to get the compromise, which resulted in the 50' setback. 


Original site plan

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jun-retail-less-parking-garage-proposed-for-downtown


A suggested compromise sketch I put together as a response article on MJ:

Here's my suggested alternative, which I think in the long run would play out better than their current layout, even with retail.



1. Shift the garage to the middle of the site.  They'll have to lose their extra surface parking lot and internal access drive but that's overkill on an urban site anyway.  Short term bank parking can be accommodated in the parking garage, just like it is in other cities with them (Ex. downtown Lakeland's Suntrust has short term parking within it's garage).

2. Shifting the garage to the middle of the site, creates significant opportunity for a variety of infill uses (hotel, retail, office, market rate multifamily, etc.) that could possibly cover up the entire garage from public view, while adding ground level life on Bay, Hogan and Independent.  Given the $3.5 million contribution, they should donate the extra land to the city so that a market rate RFP could be possibly developed.

3. Not only should Parador be more responsible for site planning here but also the city.  There are a lot of things that could be done to make Sister Cities Plaza an activity zone instead of a forgotten pass through.  That could include also using a portion of the city owned property for infill use.

This is basically the Greenville garage concept:





If it isn't something like this, I think it should include ground floor retail and be built strong enough to support a future building on top of it or not be approved at all.  In either case, as far as the look of the facade goes, I could really care less.  The important issue is how whatever goes in here integrates and activates the surrounding area at ground level.  That means more than a slick decorated facade or landscaping theme.

The final revised site plan (what exists today)


Revised site plan with future infill development surrounding it

I've been in this industry long enough now to know that even though the JEDC botched the garage retail commitment with Parador, that by getting the garage construction itself modified, you'll always have an opportunity for future surrounding infill, when the numbers work from a market rate perspective.  In fact, this food truck court could be a short term activation solution (tactical urbanism) that ultimately leads to permanent infill. Also, another good thing about getting that garage design modified, is that future infill isn't dependent on reconstructing that garage.  The market will also ultimately determine if that future infill is single floor retail, apartments, a hotel or something else.

[FlaBoy]

Isn't the owner contractually obligated to put retail in if the SunTrust Building reaches 2/3 capacity?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Thanks Ennis. 

That explanation of the set-back reminded me of how craptastic this project was on origination.  Good God

And I realize I'm crying over spilled milk now, but it wasn't until I saw the Food Truck Park idea that it really reminded me again in what a mess this was.

Our city seems to be playing checkers while everyone else is playing chess.  And it takes people with vision and drive to clean up after the fact.  it'a a great short-term fix, but we really need to long-term visions.

[Tacachale]

We're pretty much in agreement. The major difference is highlighted in red:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the nutshell version:
Company A - We want to build a garage.
Review Board- Sure, but you have to add in retail at street level.
C A - Eh, too expensive.  Tell you what, we'll add retail if this building hits this % of occupancy.
RB - Oh sure.  But we're going to hold you to that.
~substantial completion nears, occupancy % has been achieved
C A - We're selling the garage to Company B.  They take on the building, we take the money we were approved for and oh yeah we're not transferring that little deal about the retail. Y'all are gonna have to get that worked out between you guys.  Later.
RB - OK, Company B, what about the retail?
C B - Eh, too expensive.  That deal was with C A, we're just here to run a garage.
COJ Residents - Yay.  Food trucks.

The city never tried holding or tying the second company to the original company's agreement.  So we really can't fault the current owner, IMO. Things went off track well before them.

From what I remember back in those days, the DDRB and JEDC would have let C A build the garage up to the street with no retail. Downtown advocates, many of them here, worked to get the compromise, which resulted in the 50' setback. 


Original site plan

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jun-retail-less-parking-garage-proposed-for-downtown


A suggested compromise sketch I put together as a response article on MJ:

Here's my suggested alternative, which I think in the long run would play out better than their current layout, even with retail.



1. Shift the garage to the middle of the site.  They'll have to lose their extra surface parking lot and internal access drive but that's overkill on an urban site anyway.  Short term bank parking can be accommodated in the parking garage, just like it is in other cities with them (Ex. downtown Lakeland's Suntrust has short term parking within it's garage).

2. Shifting the garage to the middle of the site, creates significant opportunity for a variety of infill uses (hotel, retail, office, market rate multifamily, etc.) that could possibly cover up the entire garage from public view, while adding ground level life on Bay, Hogan and Independent.  Given the $3.5 million contribution, they should donate the extra land to the city so that a market rate RFP could be possibly developed.

3. Not only should Parador be more responsible for site planning here but also the city.  There are a lot of things that could be done to make Sister Cities Plaza an activity zone instead of a forgotten pass through.  That could include also using a portion of the city owned property for infill use.

This is basically the Greenville garage concept:





If it isn't something like this, I think it should include ground floor retail and be built strong enough to support a future building on top of it or not be approved at all.  In either case, as far as the look of the facade goes, I could really care less.  The important issue is how whatever goes in here integrates and activates the surrounding area at ground level.  That means more than a slick decorated facade or landscaping theme.

The final revised site plan (what exists today)


Revised site plan with future infill development surrounding it

I've been in this industry long enough now to know that even though the JEDC botched the garage retail commitment with Parador, that by getting the garage construction itself modified, you'll always have an opportunity for future surrounding infill, when the numbers work from a market rate perspective.  In fact, this food truck court could be a short term activation solution (tactical urbanism) that ultimately leads to permanent infill. Also, another good thing about getting that garage design modified, is that future infill isn't dependent on reconstructing that garage.  The market will also ultimately determine if that future infill is single floor retail, apartments, a hotel or something else.

This was one of the worst deals ever put together Downtown. Every level dropped the ball when putting it together, and we're still feeling the effects. However, you are right, it's better that we got them to include the setback than not, as there's at least a small chance we can get something built there in the future. Without the setback, it could never happen as long as the garage is there.

[thelakelander]

Why two Downtown leaders pushed for a permanent home for food trucks

Two Downtown thought leaders have teamed together to bring a permanent food truck fixture to Downtown, using an underutilized piece of property as the springboard for the new urban food park.

The Court is the brainchild of Mike Field and Jack Shad, who started kicking around an idea a year ago for a site where multiple food trucks could park and serve customers. About six months ago, the two decided to move forward on that idea, Shad said, and three months ago it took off when they approached Main Street Partners to use the large sidewalk space at the SunTrust parking garage.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/02/23/why-two-downtown-leaders-pushed-for-a-permanent.html

[Keith-N-Jax]

I think its a great idea, not enough of those float out of downtown leadership.

[lowlyplanner]

We're excited to be here, and happy to activate this space.

Today we've got Happy Grilled Cheese, Best Burgers, Streety Pie's and Le Petit Cheri cupcake truck.

We definitely have plans to expand and make a destination that people will come into downtown for at night and on the weekend.

[lowlyplanner]

We've got an amazing lineup today, on the first beautiful day this week.

Fusion Food Truck, Mama's Food, Cely's Famous Foods (direct from RAM), Tikiz deserts and as a special guest the Bubba Burgers truck.

Today is the day to come down and check us out!

[remc86007]

Some of the downtown restaurant owners aren't thrilled about this:

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/03/21/hogan-food-truck-court-final-straw-for-restaurant.html

I don't have much sympathy for them if they aren't able to compete with four rotating food trucks who have limited seating and few menu options. I was shocked to read that, according to the article, there are 90 restaurants in DVI's area.

[BakeryRibault5PTS]

Thats right. Brick and mortar shops are long term investors in their locale. They don't pack up and go with the wind.

Is the rental revenue from renting out space to food trucks going into city coffers?