Mayor wants viaduct gone: 5 examples of razing freeways

[Metro Jacksonville]

Mayor wants viaduct gone: 5 examples of razing freeways



Jacksonville Mayor Lenny Curry recently announced his desire for state funding to begin removing the Hart Bridge Expressway ramps along the downtown riverfront as early as next year.  For those who may question the potential results of expressway removal, here's five before and after examples where this plan has been successfully implemented.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-dec-mayor-wants-viaduct-gone-5-examples-of-razing-freeways

[jcjohnpaint]

 Providence RI also comes to mind. 

[thelakelander]

A few other examples include all or segments of the following freeways:

Crosstown Expressway - Oklahoma City

Gardiner Expressway - Toronto

Inner Loop - Rochester

I-30 - Fort Worth

Robert Moses State Parkway - Niagara Falls

Southeast Freeway - Washington, DC

West Side Elevated Highway - NYC

[David]

But where will we tailgate?

Lot X will be no more.

Only downsides I can think of: the Hart Bridge Expressway route does provide a quick route downtown.  Traffic may be worse on game days. But if it spurs development of that part of the riverfront, it's probably worth it.

[thelakelander]

East Bay is already four lanes. Things should be fine. The Hart Bridge Expressway segment Curry wants to demolish has an AADT of 11,000. By comparison, two lane roads like San Marco Blvd south of I-95 (19,000 AADT) and Riverside Avenue (13,500 AADT) carry more traffic.

http://flto.dot.state.fl.us/website/FloridaTrafficOnline/viewer.html

[spuwho]

I would like to know more of the rationale that pushed it to be built in 1963 and why that doesnt exist anymore.

My understanding is it was built because at the time there were only 4 functioning bridges in downtown and 3 of them were draw bridges. This caused massive car backups when large ships were still moving to Green Cove Springs.

The purpose of the elevation was because between Commodore Point and downtown were 3 railroads to overcome, the one serving Talleyrand, and two serving the Shipyards.

There was also a small ravine formed by Hogan's Creek that had to be crossed.

At the time there was little downtown business east of the creek, just industrial, sports and residential East Jacksonville.

I am sure the city fathers assumed at the time the shipyards would remain industrial along with Maxwell House for a long time.

I believe all of those reasons led the engineers of that era to elevate the highway.  It would be interesting to see what the volumes were over time.

Lake says it is less than some of our current popular roads. What was it in the past?

Now my next question.....if we do redevelop downtown as we would like, and we bring more population to the city core, will we miss it?  Will its purpose ever reach a point to where we regret removing it?  And if we remove it, are we willing to improve movement inside the city core in some near future? ( like transit)

If we want to give the Skyway more purpose through expansion to the sports district, then taking down this part of the highway makes complete sense.

[Steve]

But where will we tailgate?

Lot X will be no more.

It's K, which is my lot. That's definitely a personal downside as I do like my covered parking but I agree this is better for downtown.

[thelakelander]

I would like to know more of the rationale that pushed it to be built in 1963 and why that doesnt exist anymore.

Of interesting note, the actual bridge over the river has an AADT of 51,500. However, the majority of the traffic shifts to/from the MLK Parkway instead of heading downtown.

Originally, it was supposed to be a part of an expressway connecting downtown to the beaches. Obviously, that was never completed, which is why this segment's AADT has always been low for an expressway facility. It's elevated because that whole area was a major industrial center during that era.  A grade level road or highway would have meant removing several major manufacturing operations and a loss of thousands of jobs.

Lake says it is less than some of our current popular roads. What was it in the past?

The AADT was 16,100 in 2000. By comparison, the Embarcadero's AADT was 60,000 before it was removed.

Now my next question.....if we do redevelop downtown as we would like, and we bring more population to the city core, will we miss it?  Will its purpose ever reach a point to where we regret removing it?  And if we remove it, are we willing to improve movement inside the city core in some near future? ( like transit)

If we want to give the Skyway more purpose through expansion to the sports district, then taking down this part of the highway makes complete sense.

Since there's nothing new under the sun, this answer can be found by looking at the result of similar projects outside of Jacksonville.

In San Francisco, the Embarcadero's AADT was 60,000 before it was removed. They also removed a section of the Central Freeway that carried 100,000 cars a day.

https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/docs/ump/06%20SEATTLE%20Case%20studies%20in%20urban%20freeway%20removal.pdf

Removing the freeways has led to a decrease in AADTs despite significant population growth in San Francisco. The boulevard that replaced the Embarcadero carries 26,000 cars per day. Octavia Boulevard (Central Freeway replacement) carries 45,000 cars with less than 3% shifting to transit.

No matter how vibrant anyone believes downtown Jax can be one day, it will never be anything close to what DT San Francisco is at street level and in terms of population density. At the end of the day, there's really no argument from a traffic capacity to standpoint to keep that elevated highway in place.

[spuwho]

Thanks Lake for the responses.

I knew that the Hart Bridge and Commodore Point Expressway were part of a plan to improve access to the Beaches, but you confirmed my thoughts on why the ramps were elevated to begin with.

I remember after I moved here in 2004, I had a lunch meeting downtown. Unfamiliar with Jax traffic patterns and having come from Chicago, I figured I should allow enough time for "traffic".

I was a bit stunned when I crossed the Hart, there was no traffic.....none. I reached my lunch meeting very early and had to burn time at the Landing.

Since then I have noticed that the only time those ramps are busy is for 30-40 minutes in the morning and the same in the evening.

They are certainly convenient. But right now not very needed.

[SightseerLounge]

If they are going to tear down the viaduct to the Hart Bridge on the Downtown side, leave the section that stretches from the Stadium to about A. Philip Randolph. That could be your new Skyway section if they can fill in the mile on Bay St. from A. Philip Randolph to Hogan where the Skyway turns toward F. S. C. J. That could be the answer to the Skyway equation until they are able to make a modern viaduct for the Skyway. Don't be so quick to throw this away in typical Jacksonville fashion!

[seashorehi]

Curious that Mayor Curry finds viaduct removal is at the top of his "to do" list, when so many other areas in Jacksonville are of more pressing concern. Follow the money (who will get a removal contract) if there is no project already in the works for the area under the viaduct.

[thelakelander]

This one is now on ice for at least a year. Mayor Curry is looking for septic tank removal money instead:

http://jacksonville.com/news/2017-01-25/mayor-curry-taps-brakes-hart-expressway-funding-wants-millions-septic-tank-removal

[remc86007]

This one is now on ice for at least a year. Mayor Curry is looking for septic tank removal money instead:

http://jacksonville.com/news/2017-01-25/mayor-curry-taps-brakes-hart-expressway-funding-wants-millions-septic-tank-removal

Septic tank removal, now that's a sexy project idea. Although, if there is environmental damage occurring from the septic tanks, I agree with the mayor that that needs to be a priority.

I assume the city has checked to see if any federal grants are available for this?

[acme54321]

Septic tank removal doesn't have all the buzz but along waterways I'm all for it.  I've witnessed a number of areas where unmaintained septic systems fail and leak into creek and waterways.  Usually when the tank is behind a house on the slope down to the water, the tank leaks and via gravity the seepage comes out downslope and runs directly into the creek.  No bueno.