Expanding the Skyway: Where would you like it to go?

[Kerry]

A mass transit system that avoids the places where people actually want to go seems counter-productive.  If it looped around the convention center (thru the parking lot), to Jackson Street in Brooklyn and then made a right turn on Oak Street it could make it all the way to Publix in 5-Points.  The only problem is where the street was vacated behind the churches (which is why the City shouldn't be vacated right of way).  If the Brooklyn Riverside Apartments hadn't been allowed to close Oak Street it would have saved millions in expansion costs.

[thelakelander]

There's already a skyway easement along Riverside Avenue between the Acosta Bridge and Forest Street. So Brooklyn Riverside shouldn't be an issue. With that said, I'm not sure how you'd get it to the Publix. I-95 and its ramps pretty much cut Riverside off. Other than College Street, it be pretty difficult to drop it to grade without closing off access to existing streets and businesses.

[Kerry]

San Francisco already tried waterfront elevated transit and it was a disaster.  I literally can't think of anything worse for Brooklyn then an elevated skyway running down Riverside.  Cities all over the world are removing elevated structures so I guess I shouldn't be surprised Jax is considering expanding ours.

[FlaBoy]

But converting it to a street car gives more options for expansion later.

Did converting it to streetcar ever get discussed?

[thelakelander]

San Francisco already tried waterfront elevated transit and it was a disaster.  I literally can't think of anything worse for Brooklyn then an elevated skyway running down Riverside.  Cities all over the world are removing elevated structures so I guess I shouldn't be surprised Jax is considering expanding ours.

San Francisco replaced an elevated freeway with a context sensitive boulevard that also included a heritage streetcar line in the median. Transit is still expanding and is dependent on the type of system and physical landscape the transit system is being built into. Miami, Honolulu, Vancouver, San Juan, Seattle are all examples of cities that have recently constructed or are in the process of building elevated sections of transit lines.

Brightline - Miami



Link LRT - Seattle



Lynx LRT - Charlotte



Gold Line LRT - Los Angeles


As you can see below, cities are building high frequency public transit anyway they can. Not removing it. However, your view is one that will make it difficult to expand an elevated system like the Skyway into historic districts like Riverside and Springfield. It will be interesting to see if a way to operate at-grade can be developed. If it can, it would open up expansion options that currently don't exist.

[KenFSU]

To me, all are good options, but there are still some moving parts in play as well.

The most immediate, best bang for the buck is obviously Brooklyn.

From there, we need to really take a close look at what extensions are going to set the system up for the most success.

With existing conditions, an extension to the stadium district has its pros and cons. Sure, it's expensive, but particularly combined with a Brooklyn station, it solves one of the major perception issues with the system - it connects nothing to nothing - and directly links residents in Brooklyn, the Southbank condo towers, the Lavilla Lofts, the new proposed apartment tower behind Aetna, and numerous others to downtown's most active event zone (250+ events per year). Sure, the system would be taxed for big stadium events, but it should do just fine for events at the stadium, Baseball Grounds, and Daily's Place.

I would argue that if you prioritize San Marco over the stadium district, you still run into that issue of lack of compelling connections.

The true x-factor though is the Shipyards and Metro Park. If we're confident that large-scale development is imminent at either property - perhaps both - in the next three (Met Park) to five (Shipyards) years, that extension becomes strategically vital. Personally, I think it would also help encourage infill development in the dead zone between the downtown core and new development in and around the stadium district.

To a much lesser extent, if Phase 1 of the District ends up being as large as currently estimated, it would be worth its weight in QOL gold to find a way to bring the Skyway right up to the edge of (or even directly into) that development. I know it's close already, but I think it's still just a little too far away to reach full synergy with what is estimated to be a $400 million development.

[Sonic101]

San Francisco already tried waterfront elevated transit and it was a disaster.  I literally can't think of anything worse for Brooklyn then an elevated skyway running down Riverside.  Cities all over the world are removing elevated structures so I guess I shouldn't be surprised Jax is considering expanding ours.

The Vancouver SkyTrain is a good example of elevated transit, its quite successful, but not all of it is elevated. It also uses traditional rails instead of a monorail beam.

[Tacachale]

Yeah, there are a lot of successful elevated trains across North America. It's can be unsightly, but it has other advantages as well. I'd think there are far more important obstacles to moving the Skyway into Riverside rather than its ugliness; namely that it's impossible due to the Fuller Warren Bridge.

[Kerry]

I'll reserve comment on existing elevated systems mentioned above for a later time.  The Skyway was designed to be a downtown circulator.  Its design isn't conducive to reaching downtown adjacent neighborhoods.  If it expands I would like to see it reach the east side of downtown.

[thelakelander]

Your  most realistic opportunity is to go under I-95 along College Street near the Annie Lytle. That road is a lot wider than it has to be. However, it would be really difficult to get it anywhere south of Margaret without impacting the historic integrity of the district.

Also, I seriously doubt anything built in the District, Shipyards or Metro Park will happen within five years that is significant enough to outweigh the residential/employment access numbers of a San Marco or Springfield/UF Health. Both of those areas already have thousands of people living and working in them.

In fact, I'd argue investing in a skywalk between Baptist Medical/Aetna and San Marco Station would have a greater impact on ridership than a 1/4 mile extension to the District's first phase (Assuming it actually happens).  Even at full buildout....20-30 years from now, a District or Shipyards would still fall short of their current population numbers.

Springfield would have the benefit of a true transit destination in UF Health and the surrounding medical facilities. It would also do wonders for developing FSCJ's campus into a true walkable educational environment. Access to the green space along Hogans Creek would benefit urban core residents as well. With both medical campuses employing thousands and limited in land area, programs encouraging employees to use the Skyway as a shuttle service could be explored. This would free up land currently used for their parking needs for additional infill medical expansion. Anything near UF Health also gets you close to the inner city's transit dependent population base. Another plus, when it comes to ridership potential.

The best argument for the sports district is the connection to existing facilities and venues. That's actually a decent argument when you can also tie in everyday use via the Elbow, Hyatt/Courthouse, etc.

The negative side would be that the majority of people using Sports District facilities aren't downtown residents. Outside of park-n-ride potential, the majority would still drive and park in the sports district when attending events there.

[thelakelander]

I'll reserve comment on existing elevated systems mentioned above for a later time.  The Skyway was designed to be a downtown circulator.  Its design isn't conducive to reaching downtown adjacent neighborhoods.  If it expands I would like to see it reach the east side of downtown.

It was designed to reach adjacent neighborhoods as a circulator.  Here's is the original proposed routing map from the 1970s. Take note that it was originally supposed to serve Springfield, Sugar Hill and UF Health Jax:



Also, here's the route map of the Miami Metromover. It's a similar system that was expanded to serve adjacent neighborhoods like Brickell and Omni, to the north and south of downtown Miami:



Nevertheless, yes as a circulator it is not designed to be something that could serve the entire city.  As in the case with Miami's Metrorail (green), you would need another form of high frequency transit to serve greater distances.

[Ocklawaha]

Vintage or Heritage Streetcars operating on elevated tracks on a rebuilt structure (removing the 100,000+ pound concrete monorail beams) give us a instant 'streetcar' with all of the benefits of a much higher dollar Light-Rail System downtown. It also gives us the opportunity to take the future operation down to grade for quick, economical operation.

Expansion north to the UF Hospital should be a no brainer if we made this conversion. The way I see it you simply span the street north of Rosa Parks then ramp it down alongside the FSCJ buildings. At grade streetcar track could cut diagonally along the South and West boundary of the Springfield Parks with stations at Bethel, Public Health, VA Clinic and UF.

Nearly the entire route could be done in the classic historic Jacksonville method of sodding over and landscaping the whole route. All one would see is the top of two rails and a single wire. Streets crossed at grade would be protected by standard crossing gates and lights. A PCC or Peter Witt Streetcar can easily make 35-45 mph or more on such track if conditions permit it. Those streetcars can also operate entrain with a single operator making their capacity almost limitless.

East to A. P. Randolph is a logical expansion as a development catalyst for 'The Shipyards,' or Metropolitan Park. In any case it might be wise to get the elevated route extended to the area of Elbow/JSO. Hence it could drop to grade for the balance of the extension using an exclusive STREETCAR/BRT type transit Lane. This is something that many cities have used successfully to incentivize new construction. Tampa and Milwaukee have had incredible success at this and Milwaukee has 4 new mid-to high rise towers going up along the streetcar by 2020.

South to Brooklyn would be a snap as Side-of-the-road or median space is pretty easy from the (future 'and historic' streetcar maintance facility). Track already reaches grade level at the facility making streetcar extension easy. Five Points all the way to NAS JAX follows a historic streetcar route and the Ortega Bridge has rails or railed already in place. Again using BRT/STREETCAR only lanes make it operate much faster.


Hidden rail bed already in place, just follow the scars in the pavement.

San Marco is similarly easy but BOTH the elevated track to a point south/west of the FEC RY and a pedestrian sky bridge to Baptist from the current San Marco station would be necessary. The station could be rebranded 'Southbank Medical Center,' or some such since we could establish a true San Marco Intermodal Station at the FEC RY and ATLANTIC with the streetcars coming in along the west side of the tracks. 

Lastly and not mentioned but certainly worth a possible consideration with at grade or street railway would be a West JAX, Ed Waters, Moncrief etc... This Extension continues west from the current end of the line at the JRTC and could either stay elevated to the Farmers Market or use the street route via a rebuilt portion of Myrtle to Beaver. Once free and west of the CSX/NS tracks it could expand anywhere in NW JAX.


This JTA Plan for a Brooklyn Station fits the Streetcar Idea perfectly.


The Skyway cannot successfully operate at ground level in a public place due to the impossibility of crossing it and to the exposed high voltage current just under the rail. The Skyway does already come down to grade at the Maintenance Center which ironically is exactly the location of the original Streetcar Shop Facilities.


Operating at grade, a streetcar doesn't have to be unsightly, in fact it could help us regain what we've lost, the sobriquet of 'The Most Beautiful Streetcar Line In The World.'

That's my 800 pound transit guerrilla point of view.

[Kerry]

What would be cool is if the skyway car could pull onto a monrail beam that had regular train wheels.  Then it could seamlessly transition between at-grade tracks and elevated monrail.

[jaxjaguar]

Does anyone know why the tracks were converted to the beam style from the original open style? Miami doesn't seem to have any issues with theres (the sister to ours).

[ProjectMaximus]

Does anyone know why the tracks were converted to the beam style from the original open style? Miami doesn't seem to have any issues with theres (the sister to ours).

Maybe Gate was supplying the concrete?