Ben Marcus: Mayor's Pension Fix is a Pay Day Loan

[benmarcus]

If you choose to believe that a sales tax taking effect today would have gotten through the legislature, governor, and a referendum, fine, but either way, it's not on the table.

You're right that it's not currently on the table. But I think the Mayor needs to learn what democracy means and be forced to not only present us with more options, but advocate for what we collectively want AFTER a thorough discussion is had. Simply saying yes because it's the only option currently on the ballot isn't democracy. It's rubber-stamping.

I think we all agree, here, that this tax proposal will not fix the issue, and may potentially do more harm than good in the long term. That's reason enough to vote no and force our leaders to take a hard look at how they're conducting business.

[Tacachale]

If you choose to believe that a sales tax taking effect today would have gotten through the legislature, governor, and a referendum, fine, but either way, it's not on the table.

You've held this line as well throughout the discussion, and I agree with you that it wouldn't pass, but my reasoning is probably much different than yours.

It wouldn't pass because Curry CAN'T raise taxes under his leadership and still aspire to hold any position down the road.  He'll put the city in jeopardy to ensure he's not labeled as 'the accountant mayor who couldn't budget his city without raising taxes'. 

He's not going to try and sell a tax increase now, for him it's political suicide.  As far as he's concerned, the city can go bankrupt after he leaves office.  It's amazing how the passage of time insulates you from your mistakes.

Yes, there is clearly some self-preservation in the anti-tax stance of Curry and other leaders. Local voters typically punish politicians who suggest raising taxes; just ask Bill Bishop. But it's also true that the legislature and Governor Scott are anti-tax and wouldn't cotton to a sales tax they have to sign off on. Either way, it's not on the table.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Yes, there is clearly some self-preservation in the anti-tax stance of Curry and other leaders.

So would you agree when self-preservation gets in the way of potentially offering what's best for your constituents?  That they are unfit for the positions that they hold? And I'd like you to explain.

[strider]

Posted by: Tacachale
« on: Today at 02:57:02 PM »

But I really hope people aren't voting no thinking there's a cheaper fix, because there isn't one.

But in fact, as doing a 1 mil increase and hanging in there on regularly scheduled payments will be much less expensive in the long term, it is indeed a "cheaper fix".

I would be more likely to believe that the sales tax "fix" was a good plan if it wasn't for the fact that we have a Mayor that is using "or else" tactics, information indicating we may not have seen all the facts, a "plan" that is still dependent upon others to agree regardless of the vote and a Mayor that thinks past unethical practices on the part of top city appointees are just fine.  Makes me wonder what they will really use the "extra" funds they will have available to do.

As I said, 1 mill isn't going to cover the ballooning payments after only 2 years. After that, there will either need to be additional new revenue (the other mill or two previously mentioned), or massive cuts. And that's just to tread water. There really aren't two ways about it.

Of course, one mil is not going to cover the pension payments.  The purpose of the one mil as presented earlier was to provide the relatively small amount of funds to use elsewhere.  I never said anything about the idea being anything BUT cheaper.  It will be painful to pay our pension obligation from the budget and not have much "extra" funding for doing other things.  But since we really do not seem to have a guaranteed to work plan yet with the sales tax "plan", it seems to me the best course of action is to pay our debt no matter how painful and if we need to raise the property tax one mill now, another mil in two years, that is the price we all have to pay to keep the FUTURE costs of the pension in line. Perhaps without much budget left, the unions will find a solution to help us tax payers so we can do what we need.  In business, we take hits to ride out bad decisions and so should a City. Since some of those fine Mayoral appointees apparently seem to be able to bring in funds for themselves from extra curriculum activities, perhaps we can cut their city salaries a bit. Maybe we should stop giving Sleiman back funds he used to make a road he needed to make his development work.  Perhaps we should not change contracts after the fact to let developers keep funds they would have originally been required to pay back.  Maybe we could simply start insuring we actually get something from a vendor when we give them a open ended contract.

I fear the pension sales tax idea is not to solve a problem but rather to allow a larger problem to simply continue.

[Tacachale]

Yes, there is clearly some self-preservation in the anti-tax stance of Curry and other leaders.

So would you agree when self-preservation gets in the way of potentially offering what's best for your constituents?  That they are unfit for the positions that they hold? And I'd like you to explain.

I don't think that even if Curry had pushed for a sales tax taking effect today, that it would have gotten through the Legislature or the Governor, let alone passed at referendum. We know this because he had a hard enough time getting the current proposal through the legislature, and it still might fail at referendum. So no, I don't think he's "unfit for the position" or whatever. I think he's come up with an option to solve the pension crisis, a problem he inherited from his predecessors, that we now all have a chance to vote on. It isn't a perfect solution, but none of the alternatives are any better.

[Tacachale]

Posted by: Tacachale
« on: Today at 02:57:02 PM »

But I really hope people aren't voting no thinking there's a cheaper fix, because there isn't one.

But in fact, as doing a 1 mil increase and hanging in there on regularly scheduled payments will be much less expensive in the long term, it is indeed a "cheaper fix".

I would be more likely to believe that the sales tax "fix" was a good plan if it wasn't for the fact that we have a Mayor that is using "or else" tactics, information indicating we may not have seen all the facts, a "plan" that is still dependent upon others to agree regardless of the vote and a Mayor that thinks past unethical practices on the part of top city appointees are just fine.  Makes me wonder what they will really use the "extra" funds they will have available to do.

As I said, 1 mill isn't going to cover the ballooning payments after only 2 years. After that, there will either need to be additional new revenue (the other mill or two previously mentioned), or massive cuts. And that's just to tread water. There really aren't two ways about it.

Of course, one mil is not going to cover the pension payments.  The purpose of the one mil as presented earlier was to provide the relatively small amount of funds to use elsewhere.  I never said anything about the idea being anything BUT cheaper.  It will be painful to pay our pension obligation from the budget and not have much "extra" funding for doing other things.  But since we really do not seem to have a guaranteed to work plan yet with the sales tax "plan", it seems to me the best course of action is to pay our debt no matter how painful and if we need to raise the property tax one mill now, another mil in two years, that is the price we all have to pay to keep the FUTURE costs of the pension in line. Perhaps without much budget left, the unions will find a solution to help us tax payers so we can do what we need.  In business, we take hits to ride out bad decisions and so should a City. Since some of those fine Mayoral appointees apparently seem to be able to bring in funds for themselves from extra curriculum activities, perhaps we can cut their city salaries a bit. Maybe we should stop giving Sleiman back funds he used to make a road he needed to make his development work.  Perhaps we should not change contracts after the fact to let developers keep funds they would have originally been required to pay back.  Maybe we could simply start insuring we actually get something from a vendor when we give them a open ended contract.

I fear the pension sales tax idea is not to solve a problem but rather to allow a larger problem to simply continue.

Ok, but without more revenue we're looking at some very significant cuts. Next year's budget is pretty spartan. Usually the sense in this forum is that the city's level of service and quality of life is too low, not too high.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

So no, I don't think he's "unfit for the position" or whatever. I think he's come up with an option to solve the pension crisis...

Let me stop you there for a second.  I'm pretty sure ALL of the analysis that been done has proven that this doesn't solve anything.  It merely lessens the impact of the issue for today.  Carry on

....a problem he inherited from his predecessors, that we now all have a chance to vote on. It isn't a perfect solution...

Sorry, gotta interrupt you again.

Let me get this straight.  And please feel free to correct me if the next statement isn't exactly what you meant, I'm just trying to put it in terms I understand...  This 'imperfect solution' that we, "all have a chance to vote on." 

We get a chance to vote on a referendum that will allow our kids a chance to vote on the same issue 25 years from now that wasn't caused by their mayor either, but inherited from predecessors and their lack of dealing with an issue while while in office because it might hamper their future 'employment' in government. 

Gotcha. 

... but none of the alternatives are any better.

You mean the alternatives that were never proposed to begin with?

Honest question, Taca:

Is LSD your drug of choice or do go the more natural route with peyote or mescaline?  Because if I'm right, based on your perception of things, you must also enjoy seeing flavors and tasting colors. 

[Tacachale]

All right, riddle me this: what is the better solution? Be prepared to show your work.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

All right, riddle me this: what is the better solution? Be prepared to show your work.

And I've already done it.  Feel free to pull my old posts from June back up here on this thread as well.  Mine was a comprehensive, tiered plan that included raising millage, adding a 'new' sales tax now and figuring out a fee to tie in with JEA or something along those lines.  It also required actually applying the funding mechanisms that we currently have on the books but are in 'moratorium.

It generated funds immediately, some would have to pass referendum, some wouldn't, and with a stepped increase over the 4 years of his (hopefully only) term, we would actually have excess.  The millage could be backed down and the fees canceled if market conditions were warranted and the sales tax would continue.  None of the money would be tied directly to the PPFP, but would allow the city some discretionary goodwill during collective bargaining. 

Yes.  He would have to raise taxes.

Yes.  He would have to kiss the ring in Tallahassee.

No.  He probably wouldn't get re-elected.

But he would get credit, eventually, for making an extremely progressive, non-self serving decision that would endear him in the history books of Jacksonville.  Basically, he'd Jacksonville's Tom Coughlin of mayors.

[benmarcus]

All right, riddle me this: what is the better solution? Be prepared to show your work.

And I've already done it.  Feel free to pull my old posts from June back up here on this thread as well.  Mine was a comprehensive, tiered plan that included raising millage, adding a 'new' sales tax now and figuring out a fee to tie in with JEA or something along those lines.  It also required actually applying the funding mechanisms that we currently have on the books but are in 'moratorium.

It generated funds immediately, some would have to pass referendum, some wouldn't, and with a stepped increase over the 4 years of his (hopefully only) term, we would actually have excess.  The millage could be backed down and the fees canceled if market conditions were warranted and the sales tax would continue.  None of the money would be tied directly to the PPFP, but would allow the city some discretionary goodwill during collective bargaining. 

Yes.  He would have to raise taxes.

Yes.  He would have to kiss the ring in Tallahassee.

No.  He probably wouldn't get re-elected.

But he would get credit, eventually, for making an extremely progressive, non-self serving decision that would endear him in the history books of Jacksonville.  Basically, he'd Jacksonville's Tom Coughlin of mayors.

I am very interested in seeing this. Can you post the link here?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,27095.msg447167.html#msg447167

[tufsu1]

All right, riddle me this: what is the better solution? Be prepared to show your work.

For starters, there is no reason we can't raise the millage right now.  That way we can start paying down the pension liability in 2016, not borrowing against revenues that won't show up until 2031.

[Charles Hunter]

This may be related to the topic, I think.
We are paying two half percent sales taxes: the BJP tax that Curry wants to extend beyond its 2030 edpiry,the JTA toll removal tax. When does it expire, if ever?

[Tacachale]

All right, riddle me this: what is the better solution? Be prepared to show your work.

For starters, there is no reason we can't raise the millage right now.  That way we can start paying down the pension liability in 2016, not borrowing against revenues that won't show up until 2031.

Yes, we sure could. The downside is that it's a 2 or 3 mill hike (or more) in a single term or it's not going to solve the problem any more than the last couple of bandaids.

[icarus]

This may be related to the topic, I think.
We are paying two half percent sales taxes: the BJP tax that Curry wants to extend beyond its 2030 edpiry,the JTA toll removal tax. When does it expire, if ever?

The JTA tax to fund road improvements from the BJP doesn't expire until 2030.  The City still has $146 million give or take of bonds secured by that sales tax.  To be clear, this is the half cent sales tax allocated to JTA for transportation and not the separate BJP tax Curry is seeking to extend.