High speed rail project has eye on Jacksonville

[tufsu1]

If All Aboard Florida prefers to run trains with nobody in them, sure.  Why would anyone pay $143 for the a 3 1/2 hour Miami to Orlando trip when they can fly in an hour for $55? 

two more questions that may answer your first:

will AAF always cost $43 or is that the highest fare?
can people always get a flight for $55, or is this the 14-day or 21-day purchase?

[Brian_Tampa]

@Ock
Actually per the track charts in the EIS, MAS (max authorized speed) on the FECR between WPB and Cocoa is 110mph for passenger and 70mph for freights. There are some areas of 55mph running in Ft Pierce and even lower near Stuart at 35mph, IIRC. There is no listed freight MAS for the new route to Orlando from Cocoa.

@tufsu1
Checkout  http://www.tampabayexpress.com/master-plan/   under appendix A for the I-4 route maps and you will see how FDOT has carved out a typical 44ft wide section in the median. I believe it is labeled as 'intermodal' ROW now. There is a narrow spot between plant city and the Polk County parkway interchange near county line road. I've been told that the lead project engineer for this toll lane project worked on the old HSR project and is aware of the requirements to put rail down the median.

@naldo
The travel time is 3 hours, not 3.5 hours. And AAF has previously said they will use demand based pricing much like the airlines do.  So not every ticket will cost $143 and buying in advance could result in a significant reduction of fare. I feel like I am up against the FNAA/CARE nimby machine here. So much misinformation...

[Adam White]

If All Aboard Florida prefers to run trains with nobody in them, sure.  Why would anyone pay $143 for the a 3 1/2 hour Miami to Orlando trip when they can fly in an hour for $55? 

two more questions that may answer your first:

will AAF always cost $43 or is that the highest fare?
can people always get a flight for $55, or is this the 14-day or 21-day purchase?

One advantage of trains is they tend to take you from the city center to the city center - you don't have to travel in and out of a distant suburb. So if you were going somewhere for business or shopping or something, it might be better to take a train and not deal with having to rent a car. Not sure how much that would happen in FL, but it's a point.

Another good thing about trains is you can show up 10 minutes before your train leaves. That's not the way it works with planes.

[thelakelander]

I'd have to go back and look at the plans, but as of now, no high speed rail envelop exists on I-4, the Beach Line or 417 in the Orlando area.

actually there's more "reserved" room than you think...at least there was back in 2004...back then, there was a plan for HOV lanes, which are now of course tolled express lanes....and then room for rail in the median or the side of the highways

Yes. In the Orlando area some of those plans have been updated for the I-4 Ultimate and Beyond the Ultimate projects. For example, the rail envelop north of Orlando has been altered and will now run between 472 and I-95. I'm not saying adding rail in the middle of I-4 between Orlando and Tampa can't be done. I'm saying I seriously doubt it can be built with 100% private dollars. Those streets and many interchanges will have to be altered to accommodate rail in the Orlando area. If I recall, the old 80-mile HSR project cost something like $2.5 to $3 billion to build. The entire Miami/Orlando project is $1.5 billion and opens the door to several additional revenue streams for AAF and affiliated FECI and FECR entities. Again, not saying it can't be done. I just believe whoever does it will need a completely different financial game plan and that plan will probably involve major public subsidies  (not that I'm against that either ).

[Ocklawaha]

@Ock
Actually per the track charts in the EIS, MAS (max authorized speed) on the FECR between WPB and Cocoa is 110mph for passenger and 70mph for freights. There are some areas of 55mph running in Ft Pierce and even lower near Stuart at 35mph, IIRC. There is no listed freight MAS for the new route to Orlando from Cocoa.

Funny thing is I actually had the track charts in front of me when I wrote that! The point to our space cadet troll is that there ARE speed limits, there are not crossings on track rated 125mph and above.

[NaldoAveKnight]

If All Aboard Florida prefers to run trains with nobody in them, sure.  Why would anyone pay $143 for the a 3 1/2 hour Miami to Orlando trip when they can fly in an hour for $55? 

two more questions that may answer your first:

will AAF always cost $43 or is that the highest fare?
can people always get a flight for $55, or is this the 14-day or 21-day purchase?

Right now several flights a day from American Airlines are available a few days out at $55.  Not sure if that is representative of the market most of the time, I just did a search on kayak.  Not sure what All Aboard Florida will charge, however, $143 is the figure All Aboard Florida provided to the press for business class ticket from Miami to Orlando.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-releases-preliminary-fare-range/nmQLF/

[thelakelander]

What's the business fare for American Airlines and the regular fare for the train? How much does it cost to park at the airport? What about if someone wants to take the train from Orlando to West Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale instead of Miami? A straight flight from end point to end point gives you no options.

[Brian_Tampa]

The Palm Beach Post article you link to also indicates the $143 fare is for business class service from Miami to Orlando. I feel like I am feeding a Troll as Ock says.  The $55 fare is for a single 10pm flight on news years eve and also on Friday at same time. The rest of the day the cheapest fare is $155 for cattle car coach. No comparison man. $143 business class on AAF compared to $234 on news years eve for comparable first Class service on AA.Com for all flights throughout the day.

https://www.aa.com/reservation/revenueSearchProcess.do?bookingPathStateId=1451173327022-352&v_locale=en_US&v_mobileUAFlag=AA&bookingPathStateId=1451173327022-352#jcarousel-date-link

Edit: this is a pasted version of AA flights for 12/31/15 sorry I couldn't find a way to attach a screenshot.  Maybe someone could help me with that 


Choose Flights
Find Flights Choose Flights Travelers Trip Options Select Seats Review & Pay Finish
Choose Your
Departure Flight
Lowest Fare
from $55
Refundable
from $282
Business / First
from $134
Flights Departure Arrival
Sort Options
1637 
07:00 am
MIA
08:04 am
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
1 Seat left
195 
09:39 am
MIA
10:48 am
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
1061 
12:30 pm
MIA
01:33 pm
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
2464 
02:00 pm
MIA
03:01 pm
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
1334 
03:25 pm
MIA
04:28 pm
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
2285 
04:50 pm
MIA
05:54 pm
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
2447 
05:44 pm
MIA
06:49 pm
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
113 
08:19 pm
MIA
09:25 pm
MCO $155 $184 $235 $234
2461 
09:59 pm
MIA
11:07 pm
MCO $55
2 Seats left
$84
2 Seats left
$135
2 Seats left
$134

I call bullshit. I am done with this. Why do I even respond?

If All Aboard Florida prefers to run trains with nobody in them, sure.  Why would anyone pay $143 for the a 3 1/2 hour Miami to Orlando trip when they can fly in an hour for $55? 

two more questions that may answer your first:

will AAF always cost $43 or is that the highest fare?
can people always get a flight for $55, or is this the 14-day or 21-day purchase?

Right now several flights a day from American Airlines are available a few days out at $55.  Not sure if that is representative of the market most of the time, I just did a search on kayak.  Not sure what All Aboard Florida will charge, however, $143 is the figure All Aboard Florida provided to the press for business class ticket from Miami to Orlando.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-releases-preliminary-fare-range/nmQLF/

[Brian_Tampa]

I've had a lot of practice on TC Palm over the past few years.  The rabid opponents of AAF just don't think logically or with reason (like KC Traylor or ex CEO Crandall of Amercan Airlines). They are a separate breed to themselves that live in their own little world.  I read an article on TBO.Com today that says Florida will have 26 Million residents by 2030! Just imagine how that will work out without alternatives to cars and planes...

http://www.tbo.com/news/politics/squeezing-them-in-floridas-growing-population-will-come-at-a-price-20151225/


But people like Naldo are so stuck in the past and refuse to acknowledge the need for passenger rail service here in Florida.

thanks for the response, Naldo Ave Knight is one of our most committed trolls on things like this, Ive rarely found an argument coming from the poster that hasn't been disingenuously framed.

Please continue posting as there are many many thousands of other readers who aren't purposefully dissembling.

[NaldoAveKnight]

Your posts are so far out in fantasyland that we can't get a radar fix on them!

The logic is so twisted. According to you we should invest more in highways even though gas tax dollars are shrinking, traffic is increasing and the nation is facing a crisis it can't afford to fix with failing roads and bridges. Right here in Jacksonville at least 3 of our major bridges have scored unsafe, while in some states virtually all of them are unsafe. Highways are the most deadly mode of travel on the planet and we cannot build our way out of that problem.

You want us to continue to dump money into subsidizing airlines and airports even though they are the most inefficient users of fossil fuel.

Amtrak? Why continue to prop up a route that takes 9 hours from Jacksonville to Miami and 5 from Orlando when we have a private company with more then 100 years experience is willing to take the risk and cut that travel time to 3 hours.

You've harped on and on about safety, yet the FEC RY has been the winner of the National Railroad Safety awards for decades now. That derailment last week? Nobody hurt.

You apparently have no idea how the trains will operate with your '125mph trains blowing through towns' statement. FACT: no train will operate at 125 mph if there is a single grade crossing on that segment of track. This means the 125 mph track will be between Orlando and Cocoa and there is not a single town and won't be a single crossing on that line. South of Cocoa they will follow the same 79/90 mph speeds that Amtrak uses. Trains have speed limits just like autos do, if a town restricts their speed, and it is approved, then they will slow down.

As for who will pay what to ride, you don't have a clue, the price of tickets are not set yet and when they are they will be market rate., no more, no less.

Now can we stop with the 'STOP BIG CHOO CHOO' NONSENSE?

A hundred year company that's operated under a monopoly on freight travel up the east coast of Florida.  Not sure how well they will fare in competitive marketplace against cars, planes, buses, and even lowly Amtrak.

Most people enjoy a flight over a train, so yeah, we should continue subsidies to airports.

The train wreck last week in Viera on the Florida East Coast Railway caused no fatalities because the train was carrying freight.  If the train had been filled with people the outcome would have been much different.   

Even if trains crisscrossed the state it still wouldn't work for Home Depot runs, trips to the super market, etc.  Trains work great for situations such as daily commuting or snowbirds using the Sanford auto train.  Anyone who thinks trains are going to replace cars are not being realistic.  So yeah, we need to keep maintaining roads until teleportation is invented.

[Tacachale]

^These posts are classic examples of the logical fallacy of "shifting the goalposts". Every time one of the points is refuted or challenged, in comes another, different one.

[thelakelander]

Hahaha.....how did this turn into a discussion about trains replacing cars for trips to Home Depot and the supermarket? Lol, Naldo, you're all over the place.

[tufsu1]

@tufsu1
Checkout  http://www.tampabayexpress.com/master-plan/   under appendix A for the I-4 route maps and you will see how FDOT has carved out a typical 44ft wide section in the median. I believe it is labeled as 'intermodal' ROW now. There is a narrow spot between plant city and the Polk County parkway interchange near county line road. I've been told that the lead project engineer for this toll lane project worked on the old HSR project and is aware of the requirements to put rail down the median.

FDOT has been struggling with how to preserve the rail envelope and do TBX in some areas....primarily in the Westshore district.  East of 50th Street on I-4, it pretty much won't be a problem.

[tufsu1]

Yes. In the Orlando area some of those plans have been updated for the I-4 Ultimate and Beyond the Ultimate projects.

I know that "beyond the ultimate" is really just extensions north and south....but it is a terrible name...makes it sound like FDOT won't be done when the "ultimate" is built...you know, like maybe road building never ends

[tufsu1]

Right now several flights a day from American Airlines are available a few days out at $55.  Not sure if that is representative of the market most of the time, I just did a search on kayak.  Not sure what All Aboard Florida will charge, however, $143 is the figure All Aboard Florida provided to the press for business class ticket from Miami to Orlando.

thank you for comparing apples to oranges.  As Lakelander put it, maybe you should compare business class airfare with regular class rail...after all, the comfort and services would be similar.