Two 5-story luxury apartments planned for Jacksonville's Southbank

[Captain Zissou]

Momentum is everything to these folks. Jax also has something that places like Charlotte, Atlanta, or Orlando do not have, and that is AN AMAZING view of the river and true natural beauty.

People can't live off of natural beauty.  We need to keep bringing jobs to jax, or else local projects are just competing with each other for tenants.  I think that if The District does well, Balanky will try to finish building out Kings Avenue Station, which initially had a small grocery component.  That would help with the continuous growth from the Square to the Southbank.

[FlaBoy]

Of course. But DT SP has very few jobs compared to even Jax in its DT. Most jobs are in Tampa or Gateway. Jax should definitely work on getting more jobs DT, but you have to think about what makes you desirable/unique and it really is the natural beauty of DT/San Marco/Brooklyn/Riverside in comparison to some other cities in the South.

[Tacachale]

I don't think there's lack of demand for downtown housing. There's a lack of available options. The options that are there are essentially full. Unfortunately, it's been difficult to get new housing off the the ground. Hopefully what's happening in Brooklyn will spread.

[jaxjags]

I agree demand is there. So just wondering why supply has not kept up. What is different about the "economics" in DT Jax versus say Charlotte. Is it land costs, or low rents, or no local capital. Has city incentives actually slowed the process? Usually supply and demand work.

[UNFurbanist]

I think that local real-estate/apartment developers are too skidish on DT still and don't understand the large demand because they are still so focused on the TC boom. Developers from other cities just haven't had Jax on their radar so it has been very slow going. I think there is a shift happening and more projects will be planned but it is still slow. Things like the Trio really have to get underway to roundup confidence in the market. 2016 is a make or break year for DT IMO

[Tacachale]

I agree demand is there. So just wondering why supply has not kept up. What is different about the "economics" in DT Jax versus say Charlotte. Is it land costs, or low rents, or no local capital. Has city incentives actually slowed the process? Usually supply and demand work.

For one thing, compared to a lot of places there never were many people living in Downtown Jacksonville, dating back to the Great Fire. It was supported by being the central hub for the wider city, so when folks moved out to the suburbs, Downtown became the hole in the donut, except for offices and public amenities. There are probably more people living downtown today than there were 100 years ago.

Adding residential now means either an expensive conversion of a non-residential building, or even more expensive new construction. The demand that exists for downtown housing largely isn't enough to command the rents that would meet the expenses on a wide scale, without city incentives. It's easy to forget, but we had success with that in the 90s and early 2000s (the Southbank towers, 11E, the Carling, etc., all went up within the last 10 years or so). Unfortunately there hasn't been much followthrough or vision since then. That's a difference between us and Charlotte. Charlotte has invested a TON in Uptown and the surrounding area, and they've stayed on point. We fell off the wagon even before the Great Recession. Fortunately, there've been signs of life the last two or three years.

[thelakelander]

Of course. But DT SP has very few jobs compared to even Jax in its DT. Most jobs are in Tampa or Gateway. Jax should definitely work on getting more jobs DT, but you have to think about what makes you desirable/unique and it really is the natural beauty of DT/San Marco/Brooklyn/Riverside in comparison to some other cities in the South.

Staying in DT St. Pete and commuting to Gateway is like living in the southside and commuting to DT Jax.  A commute to DT Tampa or Westshore would be like living in Bartram Park or Northern St. Johns and commuting to DT Jax. A few things DT St. Pete did have in its turnaround, when compared to DT Jax, were compactness, density and political direction. At only 61 square miles, fully built-out and unable to expand outward, it's easier for local politicians to see and invest in its primary revenue generating neighborhood. With that said, DT Jax probably needs a mix of everything it can get its hands on.

[mtraininjax]

There are probably more people living downtown today than there were 100 years ago.

Really? Then why did Godbold build the silly people mover in the 1980s? The whole idea was to help the residents and people downtown be able to move about downtown safely and efficiently. Forget the boondoggle it has become, but if the people had stayed and expanded more of downtown and added more residences, the people mover would have been more of a success than the current state.

Actual Facts from Visit Jacksonville:

The fire of 1901, sparked from a chimney and igniting a fiber factory, destroyed the heart of the city - 466 acres and 2,368 buildings were destroyed, 8,677 residents were left homeless.

In 1901, there were almost 9,000 residents, about the same as today as most figures put the number below 10,000

[Tacachale]

There are probably more people living downtown today than there were 100 years ago.

Really? Then why did Godbold build the silly people mover in the 1980s? The whole idea was to help the residents and people downtown be able to move about downtown safely and efficiently. Forget the boondoggle it has become, but if the people had stayed and expanded more of downtown and added more residences, the people mover would have been more of a success than the current state.

Actual Facts from Visit Jacksonville:

The fire of 1901, sparked from a chimney and igniting a fiber factory, destroyed the heart of the city - 466 acres and 2,368 buildings were destroyed, 8,677 residents were left homeless.

In 1901, there were almost 9,000 residents, about the same as today as most figures put the number below 10,000

Two things here. One is that, as I said, the Great Fire was when it changed. After that, most residents moved to the surrounding neighborhoods and the core of Downtown was rebuilt primarily for commercial and work uses. The other is that the definition of "Downtown" has changed. There were still people in LaVilla, Brooklyn, the Cathedral District and the present-day stadium district, which tend to be considered downtown today, so there was a greater core of people nearby to support the commercial center. Those areas declined after World War II, as did all of the surrounding areas north and west of town. Meanwhile, the suburbs grew, the downtown commercial core evaporated, and eventually the population of workers declined as well. Today there are only about 2000 people living in the core of Downtown and 4000 in the entire CBD.

[thelakelander]

Btw, the Northbank core of the CDB had less than 160 residents in 1975. At the time the Skyway was proposed, the DDA was predicting that the population would increase to 18k by 1990.

[Tacachale]

Btw, the Northbank core of the CDB had less than 160 residents in 1975. At the time the Skyway was proposed, the DDA was predicting that the population would increase to 18k by 1990.

There were also a lot more workers at the time, it was supposed to be expanded, etc. etc.

[FlaBoy]

Of course. But DT SP has very few jobs compared to even Jax in its DT. Most jobs are in Tampa or Gateway. Jax should definitely work on getting more jobs DT, but you have to think about what makes you desirable/unique and it really is the natural beauty of DT/San Marco/Brooklyn/Riverside in comparison to some other cities in the South.

Staying in DT St. Pete and commuting to Gateway is like living in the southside and commuting to DT Jax.  A commute to DT Tampa or Westshore would be like living in Bartram Park or Northern St. Johns and commuting to DT Jax. A few things DT St. Pete did have in its turnaround, when compared to DT Jax, were compactness, density and political direction. At only 61 square miles, fully built-out and unable to expand outward, it's easier for local politicians to see and invest in its primary revenue generating neighborhood. With that said, DT Jax probably needs a mix of everything it can get its hands on.

For sure. You are 100% right on the political will of St. Pete. But the city was built out completely nearly 30 years ago and even with the political will, (which included building the Dome DT with no franchise) there was not really any significant movement until Rick Baker took over as Mayor and made it his quest to reinvigorate Beach Dr. and Central. DT St. Pete, for the most part, was still a ghost town even 5 years ago. But once Beach became the place to be for restaurants and Central had a strip of bars, and everyone began to realize how beautiful DT SP is, there has really been tremendous growth. The bar and restaurant scene is probably the best in DT SP(as a combination) other than maybe Miami and Ft. Lauderdale. Baker was smart though because everyone from Pinellas used to go over to Ybor and Soho in Tampa, but he saw the demand in Pinellas for a nightlife and he made it his quest to provide it. The amenities are what drove everyone to DT SP (including the natural beauty).

[RattlerGator]

Damn good points, FlaBoy.

[thelakelander]

Most of the country's major urban cores were in bad shape diring the 60s, 70s and 80s. I still remember race riots happening in St Pete's core back when I was in high school down there in the early 90s. Great things have happened in St. Pete since those days of me and my boys trying to hook up with girls near DT. Back then, the only thing worth going to was the Dali museum.  St. Pete is one of several cities that successfully rode the urban revitalization wave of the 1990s and early 2000s. I'm still amazed that Jax is one of the few that didn't.

[thelakelander]

With all of that said, I remember nightlife and dining on Central taking off years after thousands of condo units started popping up in and around DT St. Pete. Also, worth mentioning is that city was one of the first in Florida to start retrofitting its street network for cyclist and pedestrians.  Combine those investments with lots of parks and cheap available aged building stock and what you have there now happens.