Commuter Rail: Preliminary Station Locations

[thelakelander]

From the initial corridor evaluations, a line to Baldwin did not appear to be feasible.

[thelakelander]

These are the initial existing lines that they are studying to see if its even feasible to have rail service down them.  Anything requiring completely new right-of-way and track installment is most likely outside of the scope of what they are studying and won't be a part of a "initial" rail implementation plan.  For the time being, those areas would have to be served with better express bus service that has a coordinated schedule to drop riders off at the nearest rail station around the same time that the trains would arrive.

cool...if this thing ever does go through (the initial rail plan), then i think JTA should use the opening day opportunity to also highly publicize (and have operational on the same day) these new "better express bus services" that would work in exact coordination with the new commuter rail.  basically, i'm saying have the whole system up and running at the same time - not in phases. 

i would think the bus-part of this overall transit plan would be fairly inexpensive to implement.

What JTA does with the existing bus service is just as important as adding rail.  My ideal scenerio would be to make these rail lines the city's transit spines and reroute existing bus services to serve specific neighborhoods as a direct connection to the closest rail stations.  By eliminating the need for most buses to go downtown, many can be set up to make shorter runs and more frequent stops (shorter headways) on existing suburban routes.

[Traveller]

6. I'm not sure there will be decent ridership north of Airport Center Drive.  Unless the feasibility study states otherwise, it may be a good idea to terminate the north corridor line at Airport Center Road to reduce the costs and extend to Fernandina Beach (not just Yulee) at a later date.

Given the growth projections and development plans I've seen for Nassau County east of I-95 over the next 20 years, I believe a Yulee station would be fully utilized by the time this system comes online.

[thelakelander]

Given the growth projections and development plans I've seen for Nassau County east of I-95 over the next 20 years, I believe a Yulee station would be fully utilized by the time this system comes online.

I may be thinking in unrealistic terms, given our political environment, but I believe we could have an initial segment operating in five years or less, if its made a priority, designed to be "no-frills", constructed using the $100 million set aside in the BJP, along with public/private investment to construct stations.  However, if we are going to rely on the FTA for funding, the timetable and hoops to cross and jump through will be more extensive.

[Dapperdan]

Maybe someone can answer this for me. Isn't some of that rail, especially the south corridor that goes by NAS, only a one way track? How do you schedule the trains to come by frequently enough to make it worthwhile? How do the trains turn around? Do the trains go both directions?

[thelakelander]

The railroad guys like Ock can provide you with more detailed information, but here goes.

Maybe someone can answer this for me. Isn't some of that rail, especially the south corridor that goes by NAS, only a one way track?

There's no such thing as one way track. Unlike cars, trains can travel in both directions.  But, as you said, a portion of the line in that area only has one track.

How do you schedule the trains to come by frequently enough to make it worthwhile?

If Orlando is successful in their efforts to establish commuter rail there, a good portion of the existing trains now using that track will be relocated to a different line, thus freeing up capacity.  At that point, its just a matter of scheduling, double tracking or adding a passing siding here or there.

How do the trains turn around? Do the trains go both directions?

Trains can go in both directions.  If its push/pull, sometimes the locomotives will pull the passenger cars into the stations and at other times, the locomotive will push the passenger cars from behind.

Example of Push/Pull: New Mexico Railrunner


Example of Self Propelled DMU: San Diego Sprinter

[Ocklawaha]

Hey Y'all, boy is it ever good to be home.Please find the answer to a few of your concerns here:

One way track:

If we are talking about "directional-running" then it is possible to have one-way-track. Directional running is a concept born of merger of former competitive companies. A case where railroads A and B, both ran between city 1-3. For our example they did it on their own track, often only a few hundred yards apart. After the merger of A and B into a single railroad, the former "A" line became the Northbound main track, and the "B" line became the Southbound main track. In railroadese, this is known as directional running. Otherwise, except for freight trains (switcher jobs) using one-way downtown streets, there really is no such thing as a one way track. Certainly we don't have ANY within the commuter rail district in NE Flordia.

Railroad signaling is very, very advanced. I'm not talking about crossings here, I'm talking about traffic control. They are often  displayed in the locomotive cab itself. They can be locked into the locomotive controls or train controls. A single railroad track with passing sidings every 10 miles or so, has as much bi-directional capacity as an 8 lane freeway. How smooth is it? Let's listen in on the radio for examples:

"Jacksonville CSX to JAXTRAX commuter train 777 Southbound, - Status check"

"CSX tower, this is Jaxtrax 777, just cleared the YUKON platform Southbound"

"Roger 777, clear YUKON  4:03 pm Southbound."

"Jaxtrax 777, Be informed that Amtrak 92 is Northbound past Russell at 4:00 pm. You will meet at Orange Park Station, signals will indicate an APPROACH setting"

"CSX tower, this is 777 South, we will meet Amtrak 92 North at Orange Park Station, roger"

"CSX tower, this is Amtrak 92, do we have a speed restriction at this meet?"

"CSX tower to Amtrak 92, No speed restrictions are in effect, traffic control lights will be set against Jaxtrak 777 at Orange Park station, he will hold until you run-by."

This is how it is done folks, add to this the fact that the signals are "LOCKED" into the train controls themselves and if our "777" runs through a red signal, every brake on the train would lock up. So signals controlled from Central Traffic control in Jacksonville. Movement, controlled from central traffic control in Jacksonville. Looking for high greens and clear tracks...

Ocklawaha

[Jason]

Sounds like air traffic control.

[Dapperdan]

Thanks for the explanation, Ock. How do you feel about these preliminary station locations? I really hope they can take that 100 million and build out a nice bare bones system that is functional and useful.

[DetroitInJAX]

Wow, how cool would this be?  Go to St. Augustine for dinner and not have to spend a zillion dollars for gas!

Anyway, the most important connection of this whole system if you ask me is JIA.  The airport is the most important main street in any town.  Some sort of bus shuttle to the station would be in line, I guess.  Maybe in 20 or 30 years JIA could have an "AirTrain" like they have at JFK and EWR (Newark) in New York.. It connects the airport to the nearest LIRR or NJ Transit station.

....But thats just wishful thinking.  Running a reliable and timely service from Downtown to the Avenues would impress the hell out of me, as our city's track record on things like this is just awful.

[hanjin1]

I just saw this on yahoo


http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8374760

[reednavy]

I don't see any real issues, except add a station for NAS Jax Better yet, the base can start a shuttle to and from the station and go through the gate as has been stated before, which would be a great idea.

Great study overall, very well put together. JTA, make it happen!

[RiversideGator]

The most glaring deficiency with the station placement is the lack of a King Street Riverside station.  Riverside is a very walkable, transit friendly neighborhood and has to be a part of any commuter rail system.

[xian1118]

I heard this last week on the Diane Rehm show, thought it was a very interesting discussion on the "state of mass transit" in the United States. Touches on the funding issues from local, state, and federal levels.
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/08/06/12.php#20828
Listen to the first segment entitled "U.S Transportation Infrastructure"

[Tom Larson-Sierra Club]

The Diane Rehm show piece was well done.  It's worth a listen.

I think the Plan should show intial stops and potential later additions.  Each stop is expensive; we'll get started sooner if key locations are started and more added later.

As some have pointed out, stops (and a good parking deck and bus interchange terminal) are needed at JTB (there is commuter parking space there already) and Kings/Riverside and other places, like Emerson will be needed.

Each stop will become a town center development over time.  We need city zoning/planning rules that promote good and early Transit-Oriented Development at these sites.

The MPO, JTA, COJ, JAA, FDOT, DCA and St. Johns County all need to get on the same page to make this work.