The Skyway's future is in question: What's next?

[brucef58]

The article mentions that Tampa's system has 1200 riders per day.  JTA's system is now up to 5010 riders per day and is growing.  As the bus intercept portion grows along with additional near the route the ridership will grow more.

While careful cost analysis is needed, there is no need to write of the Skyway until the results have been reviewed by the citizen's advisory committee and the JTA Board.

[spuwho]

JTA has always preferred bus and road because there is no history of interaction with their city planning peers.

How can JTA justify fixed asset investments when our city fathers let any developer schmoe with influence build willy nilly anywhere under the guise of creating jobs?

Bus and road is flexible and cheap to redeploy. Fixed transit is not.

If we really want fixed transit, the city has to have a plan.

[Ocklawaha]

Interesting. Ock, how does the Skytrain handle at-grade street crossings?

As I recall it came down to grade level and they had a fully automatic 4-quadrant signal system set up on the road. There was a photo of it, but I've googled it for an hour and can't locate it. Perhaps it's gone, maybe it was temporary, but it was there. The system itself can handle such things just as the new crossings in Colombia do, they are remote, fully automated and solar powered. They simply block all access to the tracks and trust me, if you can get the Colombian's to stay off the tracks and respect the train, you've got to be doing something right. F.C.Pacifico is installing 20-30 more shortly as the massive rail investment keeps ramping up.

As for narrow gauge consider it can be more economical, reduced the deadweight on trains, reduced the deterioration of rolling stock, increased power of locomotives and fuel savings, operators and maintenance costs. Most railcar builders of any type, will build to the track gauge of the customer, otherwise they would be out of the world market. It's just something that might be worth a second look in a booming cash strapped city.

As for spuwho, "Bus and road is flexible and cheap to redeploy. Fixed transit is not." It's true bus can be redeployed on a whim, which is why unless we spend big bucks, BRT will not attract a stampede of new development. Road's however are just as costly and hard to redeploy as are railroads, and narrow gauge railroads are cheaper generally running between $550,000 and $1M per mile to build. The reason for the astronomical cost of new streetcar and rail projects in the USA is because these projects are stuffed with pork like new street furnishings, landscapes, parkways, expensive stations, massive parking facilities, etc. Rail also come front loaded with a turn-key price, track, trains, maintenance buildings, electrical etc, and BRT seldom ever even counts the cost of the pavement, let alone the rolling stock or maintenance facilities. So it's certainly seldom apples to apples.

[jaxlore]

Agree we don't need another park that can barely be maintained.

[alpoin]

The whole sky way thing here is silly.   No one rides it.  Look at the real experts at moving people quickly and efficiently and that's Disney.  Sure they have the monorail because we expect to see it.  But it has limited route.  When they build more and more hotels and expand the community there -- they use busses.  Lots of busses the run clean, often and on time.  And you can change and vary the routes with no additional capital.  Knock the thing down or make it a greenway and concentrate on getting a bus system that truly serves the whole community well

[johnnyliar]

Another truly great poster joins the forum...

[thelakelander]

About 5k ride the 2.5-mile skyway in its current state. Considering we've done just about everything possible over the last +20 years to sabotage it, that's pretty good. As far as the bus comment goes, can someone name one vibrant big city downtown in this country without some form of fixed transit? If not, why would one think Jax will become the first? Ultimately, things really do boil down to what type of downtown and urban core do we want for the city. If the answer is a pedestrian scale one, then some form of fixed transit (with coordinated land use policy) will be needed. If we want to be Disney, just give up now because that's not happening.

[Jax Friend]

All significant national and international cities share a strong correlation with somekind of fixed transit. Jacksonville's system may be neglected and technologically outmoded, but it holds the key to greater prestige and a better quality of life for all citizens of this city. The current identity article plays into the Skyway debate, as well as downtown and urban development in general. It all stems from the same problem, somekind of urban amnesia that exist in gen X, while gen Y has shifted its attention away from suburbia in lieu of urban culture. In an "average city" way Jacksonville can deliver that urban culture, in part due to the Skyway. I think as a city we feel conflicted because we all know it's broken, no matter which camp you belong too. I would like  to see Jacksonville's position rise in the world. The right building blocks exist. The cultural cocktail could boil over with just one more ingrident. The Skyway alone is not that ingrident, but a shift toward urban policy is a start.

[Ocklawaha]

The whole sky way thing here is silly.   No one rides it.  Look at the real experts at moving people quickly and efficiently and that's Disney.  Sure they have the monorail because we expect to see it.  But it has limited route.  When they build more and more hotels and expand the community there -- they use busses.  Lots of busses the run clean, often and on time.  And you can change and vary the routes with no additional capital.  Knock the thing down or make it a greenway and concentrate on getting a bus system that truly serves the whole community well

Nobody rides it? What is the source for this epiphany? The Skyway was named as the fastest growing fixed transit system in America in 2014. Since it went fare free it has been breaking records with a regularity found elsewhere only on rails. It's true that buses can shift routes at will, but not at 'no cost.' The flexibility of changing routes on a whim is the precise reason why downtown Jacksonville won't explode with growth because JTA is implementing bus rapid transit.  The new hybrid buses weigh in right at 20,000 pounds per axle. Do you know the absolute legal load limits on our local highways? How about 20,000 pounds per axle... meaning they are chewing up the roadways as fast or faster then a parade of 18 wheelers and asphalt is not cheap. Fact is, a mile of divided highway will cost you more then a mile of signaled, bi-directional, single track railroad. The highway will last for around 10 years and the railroad will last for 50. Every 50 +/- passengers on a bus represents a complete power plant, vehicle and a another driver. A rough rule of thumb for mass transit is 75% of your expenses are labor, while 25% of your income is from the farebox. A load of just 600 passengers represent at least 12 modern buses, conversely the first train into Miami back on April 15, 1896, carried over 600 passengers. Today that can be done on rails with a single operator... hell it can even be done fully automated.

Since we'd have to pay the government nearly $40 million if we tear it down, keeping those bents and panels in place through downtown saves us enough to build a basic streetcar line from downtown to King Street in Riverside. Installing rails on the bridge work makes all the sense in the world if they would go ahead and extend those bridges over State, Laura, Main, Ocean, Newnan and Kings Avenue plus the FEC RR. At that point we could literally hit the ground running...

[IrvAdams]

The whole sky way thing here is silly.   No one rides it.  Look at the real experts at moving people quickly and efficiently and that's Disney.  Sure they have the monorail because we expect to see it.  But it has limited route.  When they build more and more hotels and expand the community there -- they use busses.  Lots of busses the run clean, often and on time.  And you can change and vary the routes with no additional capital.  Knock the thing down or make it a greenway and concentrate on getting a bus system that truly serves the whole community well

Nobody rides it? What is the source for this epiphany? The Skyway was named as the fastest growing fixed transit system in America in 2014. Since it went fare free it has been breaking records with a regularity found elsewhere only on rails. It's true that buses can shift routes at will, but not at 'no cost.' The flexibility of changing routes on a whim is the precise reason why downtown Jacksonville won't explode with growth because JTA is implementing bus rapid transit.  The new hybrid buses weigh in right at 20,000 pounds per axle. Do you know the absolute legal load limits on our local highways? How about 20,000 pounds per axle... meaning they are chewing up the roadways as fast or faster then a parade of 18 wheelers and asphalt is not cheap. Fact is, a mile of divided highway will cost you more then a mile of signaled, bi-directional, single track railroad. The highway will last for around 10 years and the railroad will last for 50. Every 50 +/- passengers on a bus represents a complete power plant, vehicle and a another driver. A rough rule of thumb for mass transit is 75% of your expenses are labor, while 25% of your income is from the farebox. A load of just 600 passengers represent at least 12 modern buses, conversely the first train into Miami back on April 15, 1896, carried over 600 passengers. Today that can be done on rails with a single operator... hell it can even be done fully automated.

Since we'd have to pay the government nearly $40 million if we tear it down, keeping those bents and panels in place through downtown saves us enough to build a basic streetcar line from downtown to King Street in Riverside. Installing rails on the bridge work makes all the sense in the world if they would go ahead and extend those bridges over State, Laura, Main, Ocean, Newnan and Kings Avenue plus the FEC RR. At that point we could literally hit the ground running...

Excellent points as always, Ock. Especially like the cost analysis. I hadn't thought of the inherent costs of buses along those lines before.

[I-10east]

An engineering study came up with four options on what to do with the ASE.

Option 1: Run the current skyway system, as is, until it wears out and replace it with a streetcar system. One of the pros: its low cost.
Option 2: Upgrade the cars and run them for another 10-15 years.
Option 3: Replace the cars. That would improve the system but cost a lot.
Option 4: To get rid of it altogether. That one didn't sit well with the folks who currently ride.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/traffic/2015/09/22/the-jta-skyway-could-be-the-ride-to-somewhere/72661936/

[exnewsman]

The article mentions that Tampa's system has 1200 riders per day.  JTA's system is now up to 5010 riders per day and is growing.  As the bus intercept portion grows along with additional near the route the ridership will grow more.

While careful cost analysis is needed, there is no need to write of the Skyway until the results have been reviewed by the citizen's advisory committee and the JTA Board.

Unless you watch First Coast News... their "facts" say the Skyway has 4,033 rides a week. Journalism at its finest.

[thelakelander]

According to the APTA's 4th Quarter, 2014 public transportation ridership report, average weekday boardings for Tampa's streetcar was 700. The same report lists the Skyway at 5,000. Orlando's Sunrail is 3,200.

source: http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2014-q4-ridership-APTA.pdf

[thelakelander]

Skyway advisory group to make recommendations, but "won't do the heavy lifting"

Jacksonville Transportation Authority's Skyway Advisory Group began Monday deliberating on the contentious people mover's future. The group's starting point: Does the city even need a Skyway?

"What do we want the Downtown to look like," asked Ford, "and is the Skyway a part of it. Because we'll need to invest significant money in this system, because of its condition."

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/09/28/skyway-advisory-group-to-make-recommendations-but.html

[Charles Hunter]

But there WAS a vision for Downtown when the Skyway was planned in the mid to late 1970s. The "People Mover" as it was called then, was to connect a vibrant core with peripheral parking lots, the 8th Street hospital complex, the Sports Complex, 5 Points and San Marco. City buses would meet the Skyway at the various end stations, keeping slow, smelly buses out of the core, allowing them to make more trips to bring suburbanites to downtown.  A downtown with high rise office buildings and plenty of retail and other services.
At the time,  Southpoint and Town Center were cow pastures and Pine trees.