The Secret Scam of Streetcars

[Adam White]

What's so left or right about public transit and roads? It's simply infrastructure for crying out loud. A well designed community needs a good integrated mix of both.

There shouldn't be anything left or right about infrastructure. But I think it's fair to question how some of these things are funded - especially when you get trendy things like streetcars involved and every city wants one in order to keep up with the Joneses. It's like the Simpsons and their monorail. I am not knocking streetcars - it's just that they're probably not the best fit for every city.

It's like the stupid trend of putting a ferris wheel in your downtown. It costs a bunch of money and you do it on the promise that it will revitalize your downtown and bring in tourists - and similar promises which never seem to pan out. One could argue the same for professional sports franchises - the NFL will make Jacksonville a first-tier city! Yeah, how's that worked out?

[thelakelander]

What's so left or right about public transit and roads? It's simply infrastructure for crying out loud. A well designed community needs a good integrated mix of both.

There shouldn't be anything left or right about infrastructure. But I think it's fair to question how some of these things are funded - especially when you get trendy things like streetcars involved and every city wants one in order to keep up with the Joneses. It's like the Simpsons and their monorail. I am not knocking streetcars - it's just that they're probably not the best fit for every city.

That's the question I ask myself about the funding behind projects like the FCE (Outer Beltway). If only one of these small streetcar lines (peanuts) added up to those type of numbers.  Unfortunately, people rarely question the big boondoggles.

One could argue the same for professional sports franchises - the NFL will make Jacksonville a first-tier city! Yeah, how's that worked out?

Only a fool would believe such a line. No one has ever claimed that Green Bay is a first-tier city. Jax will be a second/third tier city for at least our lifetimes.  The gulf between the first tier is way too big to overcome.....even if we wanted too.

[Adam White]

What's so left or right about public transit and roads? It's simply infrastructure for crying out loud. A well designed community needs a good integrated mix of both.

There shouldn't be anything left or right about infrastructure. But I think it's fair to question how some of these things are funded - especially when you get trendy things like streetcars involved and every city wants one in order to keep up with the Joneses. It's like the Simpsons and their monorail. I am not knocking streetcars - it's just that they're probably not the best fit for every city.

That's the question I ask myself about the funding behind projects like the FCE (Outer Beltway). If only one of these small streetcar lines (peanuts) added up to those type of numbers.  Unfortunately, people rarely question the big boondoggles.

One could argue the same for professional sports franchises - the NFL will make Jacksonville a first-tier city! Yeah, how's that worked out?

Only a fool would believe such a line. No one has ever claimed that Green Bay is a first-tier city. Jax will be a second/third tier city for at least our lifetimes.  The gulf between the first tier is way too big to overcome.....even if we wanted too.

A lot of people seemed to have bought into that at the time. I recall Ed Austin repeating that line. Football teams don't make cities successful - but successful cities can attract football teams.

[Ocklawaha]

What's so left or right about public transit and roads? It's simply infrastructure for crying out loud. A well designed community needs a good integrated mix of both.

There shouldn't be anything left or right about infrastructure. But I think it's fair to question how some of these things are funded - especially when you get trendy things like streetcars involved and every city wants one in order to keep up with the Joneses. It's like the Simpsons and their monorail. I am not knocking streetcars - it's just that they're probably not the best fit for every city.

It's like the stupid trend of putting a ferris wheel in your downtown. It costs a bunch of money and you do it on the promise that it will revitalize your downtown and bring in tourists - and similar promises which never seem to pan out. One could argue the same for professional sports franchises - the NFL will make Jacksonville a first-tier city! Yeah, how's that worked out?

Left or right shouldn't play into the argument at all, but unfortunately it is increasingly clear that the traditional right Republicans and Libertarians have declared a war on all things on rails. It makes no sense, the arguments are silly and they ignore hard facts from places like Portland and Tampa. Is it so important if it doesn't carry a lot of passengers but delivers $3 B in new development? Well, yes it is important, if you are going to spend $100M for a streetcar/LRT start then it should connect ABC with XYZ. In the case of Tampa, if the line was actually finished with the LRT connections (it is LRT compatible) we'd all be talking about what a smashing success it is. The systems should be able to deliver both passenger need/benefit and spur mega-TOD development.

'The streetcars are not a good fit,' argument is empty rhetoric.  Chances are if a bus fits in your city, then a streetcar can. If higher levels of BRT fit in your city then LRT can. It all depends on what you want out of it in the end. If your looking for a better bus then BRT is your mode of choice and if your looking for a landscape changer then it almost has to be on rails. Any city Jacksonville, St. Augustine, Fernandina etc that grew up on streetcar lines can find a way to return to them if it has the will.

The 'War on Rail' is one of the craziest phenomenons I have seen in my lifetime.

[finehoe]

it is increasingly clear that the traditional right Republicans and Libertarians have declared a war on all things on rails.

It probably stems from their bizzaro belief that anything even vaguely communal is "socialism."

Many people in one conveyance = communism
One person per vehicle = truth, justice and the American way

[Ocklawaha]

I've got to steal that line Finehoe!

[I-10east]

What's so left or right about public transit and roads? It's simply infrastructure for crying out loud. A well designed community needs a good integrated mix of both.

Because mostly the US left pushes these things down people's throat when they are seemingly unnecessary. Contrary to many thinking that MTA trains running everywhere in NY, it has the largest US bus fleet that is vital, not some 3 mile yuppie express between a Whole Foods and a Trader Joes. Make no mistake, streetcars are politicized as quality transit and green. The black people on the yt video were correct concerning the DC yuppie express. 

[thelakelander]

Hmm. I guess it's a matter of perspective. Locally, we're getting toll roads pushed down our throats by a tea party guy...and being double taxed for the privilege to use them. Yet, we've got a five page thread about the validity of a few streetcar projects being built in other communities....go figure.

[Ocklawaha]

What's so left or right about public transit and roads? It's simply infrastructure for crying out loud. A well designed community needs a good integrated mix of both.

Because mostly the US left pushes these things down people's throat when they are seemingly unnecessary. Contrary to many thinking that MTA trains running everywhere in NY, it has the largest US bus fleet that is vital, not some 3 mile yuppie express between a Whole Foods and a Trader Joes. Make no mistake, streetcars are politicized as quality transit and green. The black people on the yt video were correct concerning the DC yuppie express.

Speaking of black people... The general consensus for a starter line in Jacksonville has been along Bay/Water across downtown then a line down to Riverside in the Park and King area. I have been pushing using the original link (Myrtle Avenue Subway) for years for exactly that reason. The community of NW JAX is underserved and a line shooting straight up Myrtle would cover all of Durkeeville and could even take up on the 'S' line well into North Jax. This Demographic is on two original streetcar routes, and America's only black owned streetcar company. I think thats worth rebuilding.

[Adam White]

What's so left or right about public transit and roads? It's simply infrastructure for crying out loud. A well designed community needs a good integrated mix of both.

Because mostly the US left pushes these things down people's throat when they are seemingly unnecessary. Contrary to many thinking that MTA trains running everywhere in NY, it has the largest US bus fleet that is vital, not some 3 mile yuppie express between a Whole Foods and a Trader Joes. Make no mistake, streetcars are politicized as quality transit and green. The black people on the yt video were correct concerning the DC yuppie express.

I don't really know what you mean re buses - no one (I hope) is contending that it should be an either/or situation (either rail or buses). I believe it's more about having a mix of options - buses usually complement rail.

Not to be all "simms" about this, but I take a bus every morning...to the local Underground station (and then take a train or combination of trains to work). This weekend I took a bus to go to a barbecue - and I have to take buses to go shopping, etc. Rail transport can provide people with a good way to get from point A to point B (and many points in between) - but for local transport, you'll almost always use a bus.

Trams/street cars are basically the same. They do one thing - they don't replace all other modes of transport. They work in concert with buses, rail, taxis, river boats, etc.

As far as the "yuppie express" - if "Libertarians" had their way, that's all we'd ever have. We'd have private rail/tram/whatever services that exist only if they can turn a profit - so they invariably will go where the "market" dictates. No transport for poor people - they can move to the wealthy neighborhoods if they want to partake. After all, the market knows best!

[mbwright]

The same is true in Boston.  It wasn't a train, or bus, question.  It was simply a matter of which mode, or combination of modes got you to where you wanted to go, and was available time wise.  Certain lines would end, late at night, and you would need to plan so you would not be stranded at the end of the line.

[Adam White]

The same is true in Boston.  It wasn't a train, or bus, question.  It was simply a matter of which mode, or combination of modes got you to where you wanted to go, and was available time wise.  Certain lines would end, late at night, and you would need to plan so you would not be stranded at the end of the line.

I think it's fair to say that Jacksonville is too spread out for buses to be the only option. And if everyone just drives, the roads are going to get more and more crowded. Some other option or options will be required.

Maybe you put in something like a streetcar to help alleviate congestion in Riverside (for example). And develop better cycling infrastructure to encourage people to get out of their cars.

In London (sorry) TfL has recognized that building more roads - or widening the existing roads - isn't sustainable. The population is growing too fast. They are actually working on ways to discourage driving and encourage using alternative forms of transport, whether it be mass transit or cycling (or even walking). There was a very interesting documentary about this on BBC last year (I think).

Also - there is a congestion charge zone which covers the center of London (basically travelcard zone 1). You can't drive through this area during certain hours without paying a fee (currently £11.50). Not only does this help reduce congestion (and pollution), but the money raised is invested in transport.

[simms3]

^^^Also suburban London is more dense than Riverside/Five Points, so it stands to reason that it's more difficult/costly to build roads in general around Greater London and while not any cheaper, it does make more sense to build rail.  Generalizing.  I was with a friend in Palo Alto this weekend.  2x as dense as Riverside/Five Points, and merely a suburb 20-30 miles outside of San Francisco.  I don't know what it's going to take to get Jax to build in a more responsible, sustainable fashion, but as it stands now roads are pretty much the only logical form of transport for 99% of the city/metro, and yet even then roads are still so costly and stupid to build because the whole area is that scattered and poorly planned.

The city does need to consider what Portland has also done in growth boundaries and reel in the boundaries where it is even legally possible to build.

[finehoe]

The city does need to consider what Portland has also done in growth boundaries and reel in the boundaries where it is even legally possible to build.

Will never happen in FL.  Look at the UDB in Miami-Dade.  The thing is constantly being breached.

[Adam White]

^^^Also suburban London is more dense than Riverside/Five Points, so it stands to reason that it's more difficult/costly to build roads in general around Greater London and while not any cheaper, it does make more sense to build rail.  Generalizing.  I was with a friend in Palo Alto this weekend.  2x as dense as Riverside/Five Points, and merely a suburb 20-30 miles outside of San Francisco.  I don't know what it's going to take to get Jax to build in a more responsible, sustainable fashion, but as it stands now roads are pretty much the only logical form of transport for 99% of the city/metro, and yet even then roads are still so costly and stupid to build because the whole area is that scattered and poorly planned.

The city does need to consider what Portland has also done in growth boundaries and reel in the boundaries where it is even legally possible to build.

Yes, more dense for sure. But likely not nearly as dense as you'd think. Out where I live there are few terraces - most of the houses are detached or semi-detached. There are so many more motorists out here. In many ways it reminds me of the US.

We have a greenbelt which surrounds the region - theoretically this should reduce sprawl and encourage infill. I've always thought Jax should look into a growth boundary and impact fees for developers (not sure if that is a city or state issue).