Possible tax hike draws protest

[gatorback]

Funny.  I thought St. Augustine was the nation's first city.  But I get what you're saying. 

[gatorback]

From your buddy's over on the wiki:

St. Augustine is the county seat of St. Johns County [1], Florida, in the United States. It is the oldest continuously occupied European-established city, and the oldest port in the continental United States.   

[gatorback]

When was Jacksonville's greatest periods of growth?  I must have missed it.  Was that when the actor was president?  You don't need to tell me the quality of life sucks in Jacksonville.  I was miserable there.  I find Austin fresh and invigoration.  And yup, the taxes here are a hair higher, but so worth it.

[thelakelander]

When was Jacksonville's greatest periods of growth?  I must have missed it.  Was that when the actor was president?  You don't need to tell me the quality of life sucks in Jacksonville.  I was miserable there.  I find Austin fresh and invigoration.  And yup, the taxes here are a hair higher, but so worth it.

Jacksonville's greatest period of growth was right after the Great Fire of 1901 up to the Great Depression.

[gatorback]

Oh that's just perfect lake.  FYI, that's before the Baptist took over.

But look on the bright side, perhaps that new grade school at FBC will be the spring board back to life for jax.

[Driven1]

The point is that this unbalanced, and totally indefensible strategy of cutting taxes before cutting spending is ass backwards.  If you did this in your home budget, you would get your house taken from you.

people get their house taken from them everyday because they WASTE their income.  it's not that they don't have enough income.  it's that they think buying brand new furniture or a Nintinendo Wii or a DVD collection or the latest new cellphone with all the ringtones is more important than THE ESSENTIALS (like a mortgage). 

and this is how the city of jax is behaving.

[Driven1]

this would be crazy:

if the only ones able to SAY how the tax $$ was spent were the ones who paid taxes.  whoa.  would things be different.  one thing is for sure.  there wouldn't be a whole lot of assclown socialists running around screaming "the sky is falling". 

[Driven1]

income = expense.  Balance
income is greater than expense.  Profit.
income is less than expense.  failure.

i agree Stephendare.  Cutting expenses should be a priority in Jax.

[chris]

I think its interesting that we're all arguing against the same damn thing... government incompetence.
We just don't agree on how to address the issue: either by cutting taxes to stop the frivolous spending or dumping the morons out on the street.

driven1- I understand the anti-tax argument. Believe me, my dad's a fair tax fan, I hear about that all the time:(

But the base is this, as Stephen said in so many words, if you want to run a government like a business, you never willingly cut your income without having a buffer created by reduced spending because its not good business. Now, we could go ahead down the privitization road, but in the end, it ends up being more costly, to the average consumer, than it would be if we had all just paid for it in the first place.

We won't go into the corruption discussion. We all know about the crap that happens, the point is, how do we fix it? For example, if CB can get away with the stunts she pulls, whose fault is it? Hers for being a little shady, or ours for not holding her accountable?

And just for the record, I realize that I am probably one of the youngest contributors to this website, but please do not use my age as an excuse to underestimate my understanding of the issues. Although, I don't pay taxes, I have more invested in this community than most would like to admit: my hopes for prosperity, my dreams of our future, and my entire life is invested in the community of diverse thought that is this town. I'm a Jacksonville native and have been involved in feuds with Sleiman, fights with JTA or FDOT, politcal campaigns and the social scene for my entire life. My idealism exists not because I am uninformed, but because I am young enough to believe it can be better and wise enough to know that pessimism and argumentative discussions only cause more problems.

---- (after I wrote the above)

people get their house taken from them everyday because they WASTE their income.  it's not that they don't have enough income.  it's that they think buying brand new furniture or a Nintinendo Wii or a DVD collection or the latest new cellphone with all the ringtones is more important than THE ESSENTIALS (like a mortgage). 

and this is how the city of jax is behaving.

So what's your solution driven? I am curious to understand how you plan to unseat a corrupt government, pay for community necessities AND lower taxes, without adding some sort of new FEE... What are your plans for this great individualist utopia?  

P.S.- That last part is not intended to be rude, just blunt and direct.

[thelakelander]

I think people that like living in cities with no cultural life, no mass transit, no bike lanes, no real academic possibilities, and a demonstrable inability to attract real corporate interest as a result should move to hastings florida where they belong, so that they can practice their farmhand mentality as they wish.

Isn't it possible to have these things without tax hikes?  I'm another person who is opposed to raising taxes.  As the only working member of a four person household, I have enough things on my plate.  Before any idea of raises taxes comes online, leaders should first get a better grip and handle on the money already coming in.  If that were seriously done and a few priorities were changed, I think we'll find that some of the things we believe we need tax hikes for can be funded with what we already take in.

[Driven1]

to me, it boils down to the same old argument.  even here at the local level.

regardless of who is in charge or how inept the leadership is, liberals want to increase spending and raise taxes.

conservatives want to cut incompetent, unnecessary expenses so that they can cut taxes.

and conservatives are paying 80% of the taxes, so I can understand where they are coming from.

it will never change.


chris, i actually really appreciate your vantage point and think that your age can certainly be an advantage.  it takes a while though, but as you spend YEARS paying a large amount to a corrupt gov't that is inept on top of it, you become a little jaded.  i've outlined my plan for cutting expenses in another thread.  i'm going biking now, but will try to copy and paste that later tonight.  thanks again for being here and sharing your ideas.

[chris]

this would be crazy:

if the only ones able to SAY how the tax $$ was spent were the ones who paid taxes.  whoa.  would things be different.  one thing is for sure.  there wouldn't be a whole lot of assclown socialists running around screaming "the sky is falling". 

And whoa... What the hell do you think the voting age is? Growing up in Florida is a joke unless you've got relatives in healthcare or plan on working in the service industry for enternity. what you just proposed is cactually what happens. I didn't elect these numbskulls, the generations before me did. The reason the communitarians are running around like chicken little is because the sky IS actually falling.

I'm all for not raising taxes, but in order to stay competitive in this global market, you certainly can't be running around cutting them like the state did. That's just foolishness. Tax dollars are community investments in all public goods. I am merely trying to convey the flaws with an overriding anti-tax agenda, and I think its remarkable that the conservatives, those who have been in control for God knows how long are the ones complaining about the taxes they imposed on themselves. What is extra fluff in government?  Child Services? Education? Where does the line get drawn?

And as a liberal, I'm about investing in a community where I can be proud to live, raise children, etc. If we can do that without taxes, AWESOME! If not, then pony up the money for quality government.

[Driven1]

I'm about investing in a community where I can be proud to live, raise children, etc. If we can do that without taxes, AWESOME! If not, then pony up the money for quality government.

The taxhaters are way too lazy to get involved with their own tax monies.

you say lazy.  i'd say they are probably working (and spending time with family).  that is the unfortunate drawback of being an actual taxpayer.  to pay all those taxes that are so wistfully wasted, you have to have a job.  this is a quandry joyfully not faced by a lot of those that live off of the system.

[Downtown Dweller]

I think the support for the tax cut WAS a message to these yahoo's to quit spending and skimming. Unfortunately they are so dense they missed the message....

[Driven1]

I think the support for the tax cut WAS a message to these yahoo's to quit spending and skimming. Unfortunately they are so dense they missed the message....

oh, it definitely was.  and our inept leaders said "to be damned!  we'll spend whatever we want to!  our citizens will just keep giving us more and more - watch this!" 

unfortunately, i think it was a combination of two things.  1) littlepage and the t-u got the "tax them more" crowd rallied up and 2) a great PR campaign by Peyton et al was able to convince enough people to somehow look past his dismal abilities as a leader and just accept the new fees.  kind of like sheep to the slaughter.

further unfortunate is that i think it will be the exact same 2 things that push a giant millage rate increase.

i'm with yesterday's T-U letter writer.  let's do another sales tax increase if we want more $$.  while it doesn't need to be 1/2 cent (1/4 cent would be fine) this is an across the board tax that is much more fair.  would  make these "tax them more" assclowns pay as well.

in any case, i am sure that i am not alone in beginning to seriously think about where in nassau, st johns, baker or clay i would like to live and about a plan to get there.  these new "fees" and "increases" and "taxes" and "hikes" in Duval are getting laughable.  and the citizenry that sits back and lets it happen is just as sad. 

this is what our liberal mayor misses:  Keep putting pressure on the real taxpayers and eventually they push back.  not in form of protests down at City Hall (the original topic of this thread).  but by up and moving and then you're left with the assclowns now telling you how to spend money you no longer are receiving.  this is a large reason for the massive population explosion in NW St Johns County.  in a related matter, it is certainly not good "urban" policy either.  it takes people actually living in the city for the urban policy to be effective.