Canoeing vs Kayaking in the Urban Core

[InnerCityPressure]

I'll start this off by saying that I am relatively clueless when it comes to watercrafts .  I've been casually following the downtown kayaking discussions here for years.  I'm now very interested in getting out and paddling with my family.  The key word there is "family."  I hope to do all of this in a modestly priced canoe.  Do all of the discussions about kayaks in McCoy's and Hogan's creeks apply to canoes as well? 

• I presume canoes carrying 400 pounds will require a higher tide than most kayaks.  Is that something that I need to consider to a great degree?
• Assuming that the launch at St. Johns Marina is the best place to put in, will I have an easy time paddling across the St. Johns to get to McCoy's/Hogans?  Is there an easier place to put in from Riverside?
• Is there a comprehensive list of places to go paddling in Jax?  I've seen the Waterways list of access points, but I have to presume there are numerous unofficial launch points.

Thanks for your help as I consider this new endeavor.  I'm sure I will have many more questions as this conversation proceeds!

[Overstreet]

A canoe will take little water to float it. Most tides wil be OK.  Have you paddled much before? 

You can launch at the ramp. Most of the water on the south bank will be on the less current side of the river. Water over at the Landing docks can rip through there pretty fast. First timers might want to stay out of this water. Besides that is where the most power boat traffic is.

Jaxkayakfishing.com has a list of good kayak/canoe launch points.

You can also look at paddle florida for state trails. Most of those will be away from Jacksonville.

COJ parks and recreation has a list of city boat ramps. Most of those have places suitable for parking and canoe launch.

If you are crossing the river "easy time" depends upon wind and tide. Just remember like an airplane in a cross wind you may have to point higher that your intended landing point. In other words "crab" towards the place you want to go since tide flow (changes) and wind (also changes) will tend to drift you the way it wants you to go.  Wind opposing tide can build up waves. But downtown is somewhat sheltered at times by buildings from the wind.

If you haven't done any before I'd suggest a rental and group trip. Kayak Amelia has a few of those in semi sheltered areas. Remember that minimum safety equipment(daylight)  is CCG approved PFD for each person and a whistle/noise making device.

Lately I've done a few trips up the Cedar River launching at the San Juan ramp. Be careful of slippery conditions at the ramp. Lots of houses and canada geese.

[InnerCityPressure]

Thanks for the info. 

I have used canoes on numerous occasions, but only in lakes, which is obviously a completely different animal.  I am confident in my paddling ability (as in knowing how to use one effectively), but I have never had to check tides, winds, etc.  If the depth of the creeks is not a concern, then the only confidence I need to gain is my knowledge of paddling across a flowing river and how that affects the experience. 

What's the best place to get a wind report/tide chart?  Is a report on currents even a thing or does it completely depend on what's happening in the river at that time (power boats, etc.)?

[KenFSU]

Are alligators a threat? The prospect, however unlikely, of becoming a hungry reptile's afternoon snack is the only thing keeping me away from kayaking around Jacksonville.

[Dog Walker]

Are alligators a threat? The prospect, however unlikely, of becoming a hungry reptile's afternoon snack is the only thing keeping me away from kayaking around Jacksonville.

They will run away when you approach them on the water4.  Dogs and small children on the edge of the shore are at risk if an alligator has been fed and lost its fear of people.

[Ocklawaha]

I'm sure there are those who would argue that; kayak's are better than canoe's, that are better then kayak's...etc. My wife, kids and I have been paddling for 30 years. I pretty sure Noone and his family have been paddling at least as long.
Noone loves his kayaks, I love canoes.

There are not really many differences in the two as far as restrictions go, either boat can get into water that is only a couple of inches deep. Canoes can carry more cargo and that includes family members, coolers, camera bags, or camping gear. Kayak's likewise have models that can carry a respectable load.

Performance, this is perhaps the most important thing for a newbie with a paddle. A kayak is generally faster, but not many kayakers have paddled alongside a Jensen designed ( http://www.jensencanoes.com ) Clipper, We-no-nah or Classfive canoe. Spend a bit more for quality and you will keep your canoe FOREVER.

A canoe is not a canoe or a canoe, there are small details that will make a huge difference in the performance on the water. Speed can be murdered by the presence of a keel, something you DON'T want under your canoe. It will also be effected by the 'rocker'. Rocker is seen when a canoe is laid on a flat surface and both ends are a inch or two off the ground, the more rocker the slower the boat, but the more rocker the better the boat handles in whitewater. Around JAX and Florida in general, you DON'T want rocker either. Entry on the bow will also effect speed, a knife blade sharp entry, long and sleek along those first few feet makes a difference in the ease and speed of paddling. Seating comfort is important and maybe more so in Florida, (in the summer the upper portion of your legs are toasted) your probably best looking for or adding slide-adjustable tractor seats. Tumblehome will become more important as your skill grows, you'll want to lean the boat to a space between it's primary and secondary stability and use that feature to increase the speed and performance of your paddle.

Lastly material; in Florida fiberglass, kevlar or a composite will serve you best, metal or Royalex create problems the latter with hull shape and former with weight. If your going over rocks or rapids then you might want to take a look at these. A last note (mayor Brown are you looking?) is concrete boat ramps ARE NOT where you want your canoe. Any rock like surface will cut and grind the bottom of your boat into a battle scared wreck. Launch in the sand or along a natural creek bank:

River Oaks Park
New Rose Creek
Christopher Creek
Hogans Creek
Fishweir Creek
or
Goodbys Creek at Camp Tomahawk (which with some work could be the best paddle put-in in NE Florida)

http://www.classfiveboats.com/fiberglass-canoes.html
http://www.wenonah.com
http://www.clippercanoes.com (the Jensen 17 is on my bucket list)

Check out the local paddling club for some fun and a bunch of new friends:
http://www.flsckc.com

Hope this answers a few of your questions, happy paddling.

[InnerCityPressure]

Thanks for all of the details, Ock.  I was hoping you'd chime in as I've read many of your comments and posts from as far back as 2008 about canoeing the local waterways.  I was also very much expecting veterans like you to sell me on spending $3000 on a canoe.  I'm absolutely a "pay for quality" guy...after I'm sold on the activity.  At this point, I'm not sure how often I will be able to organize a water trip, so I have to start very humbly.

Is this a "not completely terrible" option?

http://www.pelicansport.com/en/products/canoes/pelican-155

I have a friend who is willing to sell me a nearly new one for $250.  A very reasonable price for me to "test the waters."  This will surely be a limiting experience, but is it sufficient to safely introduce myself to the waterways in the core?

[Ocklawaha]

The 'completely terrible' aspect of the Pelican is the keel. When you get up McCoy's or Hogan's Creek and then discover you CAN'T turn the boat because your dragging a keel sideways through the water then it's game over for small waterways. This would be fine if you want to go tooling your way to Blount Island to play frogger with container ships, but it will not work in tight precision paddling.

Hold on until you can get something without a keel. I recently purchased a small Indian River Canoe with a square stern for the purposes of 'canoeing whilst broken,' with a small electric motor. It's a bathtub, but its keelless and a boat and I won't have to muscle it into position. They do make some keelless boats but you'll spend as much as you would for a good Classfive boat. Classfive BTW took over the glass boat production of Mohawk Canoes. The Mohawk cruiser or tripper, was a excellent and highly rated boat for a fraction of the price of Clipper or Wenowah. When I lived near the Wekiva in Central Florida my car parked in the driveway and 5 Mohawks occupied the garage... It's all about priorities! LOL! Here is the boat in it's current incarnation:

[InnerCityPressure]

Thanks so much for the input.  I hope all is well with your health and otherwise!

[Noone]

ICP, I bumped the thread Exposing Hogans Creek for you. When the weather breaks I have a tandem kayak and we can do a trip Downtown. We can both provide a spark for access and opportunity.

[Overstreet]

The 'completely terrible' aspect of the Pelican is the keel. When you get up McCoy's or Hogan's Creek and then discover you CAN'T turn the boat because your dragging a keel sideways through the water then it's game over for small waterways. This would be fine if you want to go tooling your way to Blount Island to play frogger with container ships, but it will not work in tight precision paddling.

Hold on until you can get something without a keel. I recently purchased a small Indian River Canoe with a square stern for the purposes of 'canoeing whilst broken,' with a small electric motor. It's a bathtub, but its keelless and a boat and I won't have to muscle it into position. They do make some keelless boats but you'll spend as much as you would for a good Classfive boat. Classfive BTW took over the glass boat production of Mohawk Canoes. The Mohawk cruiser or tripper, was a excellent and highly rated boat for a fraction of the price of Clipper or Wenowah. When I lived near the Wekiva in Central Florida my car parked in the driveway and 5 Mohawks occupied the garage... It's all about priorities! LOL! Here is the boat in it's current incarnation:

True but the keel........can be over come by paddling technique. Bow paddler does foward sweep, stern does reverse sweep and boat turns clockwise in it's own length.

A single paddler can get similar effect by heeling the boat like a freestyle canoer and doing a reverse sweep. It will pivot on the low side. Caution this takes practice. A kayaker would call this cutting an edge. A true free style canoe would not have a keel.

[Overstreet]

Concrete ramps can be overcome by ingressing and egressing the boat parallel to the concrete with the hull supported by soft water. Dragging the boat up the ramp is abusive.

Note you can't do much canoeing or kayaking without scraping sooner or later on oyster beds or rocks. It will happen eventually or you ain't doing it enough or going to really boring places. 

[Overstreet]

Tides.......
here is my favorite place........

http://www.jaxkayakfishing.com/weather/hw3.php?forecast=tides&place=jacksonville&state=fl&zipcode=32099&country=us&county=12031&zone=FLZ025&alt=tides&locid=1577&syear=2014&smon=3

[Ocklawaha]

The key words here Overstreet, appears to be 'beginner.' You and I could lean into a paddle, I use the tumblehome on a good boat along with the 'J' and other fancy strokes. This little clip will fill you in on just a tiny sample of what Overstreet and I are talking about. You are probably not at this level yet, so don't get into a boat that will demand high skill at the front end, work your way into it and you'll be attached for life.

http://www.youtube.com/v/kPrIAuphWsA?version=3&hl=en_US

Yes, concrete, oysters and logs will mar the bottom, but why seek them out? If I can avoid concrete I do so especially when a sandy/muddy creek bank is usually within an easy walk of the put in. When you get to advanced beginner level you've GOT to do the Juniper Springs run.

[InnerCityPressure]

As far as tides, is it best to begin a journey when low is going high to ensure the water level is adequate for the entire trip? 

Is there a height that I should completely avoid?  For example, March 29th low tide is projected to be -0.2 ft.  Would that present a problem?

Also, is it just wind and motorized vehicles that will affect the currents or do certain tides create difficult conditions?