Which Rail do you prefer?

[thelakelander]

Realistically, I'm not sure the majority of NE Florida will ever embrace TOD by extension of transit service....or if it ever should. We never embraced SR 9B, the Outer Beltway or toll lanes but we're getting them anyway. Just looking at Jax, we're an 800-mile city where most of it doesn't even have the density to support fixed transit and won't anytime soon. 

I'll admit, I'm not a strong believer in marketing schemes (I'm a show me, don't sell me type of person), but I'm not against grass roots public education efforts. I just don't think a JTA or COJ needs to sit and wait for massive countywide public support before better utilizing what we already have and can afford to operate/expand.

After all, there's several examples out there (like a Houston, Charlotte or San Diego) where someone or some entity launched something small and within their means, which ended up helping growing more mass support for larger expansions years later.

I'm of the opinion if you can only pull off 5-10 miles of something locally, make it the best 5-10 miles of local service that it can be. Maybe you don't end up with the latest and greatest 20-30 mile long LRT line that makes every other community jealous but so what. You can still end up with a pretty vibrant and healthy tax roll generating core out of an area that's a burnt out shell today. Even then, through good coordination with other agencies (Amtrak, FDOT, AAF, etc.), you can still incrementally pull off massive improvements that expand your reach even if the guy living just outside of Baldwin, Mandarin or Oceanway never hops on board. So, if a grass roots public education effort succeeds, it simply adds to the momentum that was already in place.

Nevertheless, there's already public buy-in for making the skyway more functional and even BRT through the Northside.  We should acknowledge and utilize that pre-existing support.

[thelakelander]

^You need local public support to raise taxes to fund something like LRT or local commuter rail. I'm in agreement there. However, you don't need massive public support to improve what you already have.

For example, if JTA wants to expand to Brooklyn, they don't need the Argyle guy's permission to do so unless Argyle guy is footing the bill. They have enough in their reserves already. If San Marco wants a Skyway extension, they shouldn't have to wait for a marketing effort for buy-in from Arlington if they want to form a TIF to fund improvements in their neighborhood. By the same token, if Amtrak wants to run down the FEC to Miami, you don't need to fund an local education campaign to make sure there are stops in Downtown Jax and St. Augustine, enabling some sort of direct service between the two cities. If AAF wants to expand to town, who cares what the guy in Lackawanna or Riverside thinks about them if they are footing the bill for service on tracks already owned by them? You should always seek to improve regardless of what type of business or operation you're involved in, whether you have massive public buy-in or not.

[JFman00]

Good points, but it doesn't take an urban planner to look at the design for the JRTC and conclude that the powers that be at both the local and state level (cough JTA and FDOT) have no interest in focusing on the kinds of projects that would build public opinion. JTA *could* do those things *if* they wanted to. But at this rate, JTA gets away with 50k for a streetcar study here or another study on one of the longer fixed lines there, without ever seriously having to attempt anything. Indeed, with the split of opinion here (many Riverside and San Marco residents) on whether expanding the Skyway would be money better spent on project x or y, JTA gets away with doing nothing while paying lip service to community input.

[thelakelander]

I'd argue there's already public support for a lot of things. The public has wanted a vibrant downtown for decades. Still hasn't happened. The public wasn't crazy about the Outer Beltway and toll facilities, but you're still getting them. Over the last decade, I've been involved with several initiatives ranging from COJ visioning plan efforts, commuter rail studies and the mobility plan to North Florida TPO long range transportation planning and various downtown revitalization efforts. In every case, people have asked for a more transit friendly city.

Speaking of streetcar, it's easy for the average guy to toss JTA under the bus but the mobility plan/fee funds it without JTA, if COJ wants to go that route. The ground level support for several initiatives is and has been there a while. Just look at how the public reacts every time council decides to tinker with the mobility plan (despite public support, they still continue to cater to special interests every year). People come out in droves.

But what's the proposal on the table to harness the energy? Are you guys envisioning having the public vote for a sales tax increase for several projects, lobbying for finishing land use/zoning changes along existing/proposed transit corridors or are we talking about just figuring out how to get some incremental things done without going that route? If asking for money, get in line because every group from libraries to JAXPORT is at the table with their hands out.  Without being able to illustrate some type of improvement with what we already have in place, good luck at getting the majority of the city to tax themselves more.

Also, I'm pretty much convinced there's a layer of special interest with strong political influence you'll need to overcome and I'm not sure a marketing effort is going to get that done....unless it's focused on showing that layer of influence how they can make money off of it.

[Kerry]

Just for fun I made a quick Jacksonville Regional Rail route map.  This route uses existing lines except for the JIA extension.  Feel free to pick it apart.