Why is Downtown a Blank Slate?

[RG]

As for Atlanta downtown vs. Jacksonville downtown, Atlanta is a city 4 times our size yet its downtown is woefully underdeveloped.  The fact that we can even compare Jacksonville to it speaks volumes about its failure.  The problem with downtown Atlanta (not counting Midtown) is that it has many attractions but they are largely disconnected, there are few residents, locals dont go there for anything and the whole area is truly unsafe after dark.  Very few people live in downtown Atlanta to this day and their downtown Macy's just closed a year or two ago.  In fact, the whole downtown establishment has basically decamped for Midtown or Buckhead over the past 30 years.  So, they are clearly not an example to follow IMO.  

As for Orlando, I did not compare Jax to Orlando's downtown.  They are ahead of us with bars and entertainment but this undeniably has a lot to do with the fact that they are one of the top 5 tourist cities in America.  Again, I am not saying that Jacksonville has no room for improvement, I just dont believe we are behind our peer group as much as many think and I think we have as much or more potential and ongoing development than many peer cities.  BTW, I like the metrojacksonville guys and didnt mean to come across differently.   I am certainly a Jax booster though.   ;)

[cinch2win]

Atlanta underdeveloped - I disagree. A skyline to kill for, yes the retail has fled for Phipps or Lenox, but its the same issue, not enough people living downtown to support the store. There is still retail downtown in Atlanta, and much of it is higher scale than what we have in our downtown core. They do have 5x the population in a 20 county region, so sprawl is taking its toll on their downtown too. Atlanta will never stop growing, it might if it runs out of water, but it will probably drain the Hooch before that happens.

The aquarium has been a major boost to downtown, and yes it is downtown. World of Coke moved from Underground to be next to the Aquarium and CNN does not hurt that its studios are there as well. These are destinations that tourists flock to as well as conventioners, since the World Congress Center is next to CNN. The number of quality downtown restaurants in Atlanta is still very high and many people still go to downtown for events in Centennial Park. Their downtown has many draws. Ours does not.

I am not sure what you mean about safety in downtown Atlanta. Its as safe a place as any downtown area in the country. But if you want to look for trouble, you can find it. How many people would consider Hemming Park safe at night given the events over the last month?

[Broderick]

I didn't mean to imply that downtown Montgomery was some high living and entertainment district, lol, no!!!! My point was that the community and the officials there seem show more organization, cooperation and dedication than here in Jax when Jax has all of natural ammenities and more people that can "make things happen".  

I lived in Boston for a while before moving to Jax and while I'm no city planner ,I must say, with the weather here, the river and the natural beauty it seems it would be easier to develop downtown.

[thelakelander]

Written by RG, Friday, June 15, 2007 at 1:23:58 am EDT

As for Atlanta downtown vs. Jacksonville downtown, Atlanta is a city 4 times our size yet its downtown is woefully underdeveloped. The fact that we can even compare Jacksonville to it speaks volumes about its failure. The problem with downtown Atlanta (not counting Midtown) is that it has many attractions but they are largely disconnected, there are few residents, locals dont go there for anything and the whole area is truly unsafe after dark. Very few people live in downtown Atlanta to this day and their downtown Macy's just closed a year or two ago. In fact, the whole downtown establishment has basically decamped for Midtown or Buckhead over the past 30 years. So, they are clearly not an example to follow IMO.

While Atlanta does have it's problems, the work that has been done around Centinnel Park would suggest otherwise.  The city could certainly benefit from more "connectivity" but from a recent trip there, its quite apparent the community understands this and work to enhance that connectivity is being done.

MetroJacksonville Centinnel Park Photo Tour: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/452/93/

As for Orlando, I did not compare Jax to Orlando's downtown. They are ahead of us with bars and entertainment but this undeniably has a lot to do with the fact that they are one of the top 5 tourist cities in America.

Orlando's success in downtown is a result of people living in a compact setting nearby and a progressive city government, not the tourist traps located near Kissimmee.  That entire downtown scene is heavily local oriented.

MetroJacksonville Orlando Connectivity Tour: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/429/80/

Again, I am not saying that Jacksonville has no room for improvement, I just dont believe we are behind our peer group as much as many think and I think we have as much or more potential and ongoing development than many peer cities.

Unfortunately, the more and more trips I've taken over the last few years are showing (at least to me) that we are behind.  Maybe not so much in the amount of proposals or money spent downtown.  Instead we're behind because we haven't embraced the concept of connectivity.  Urban vibrancy is difficult to stimulate without connectivity and until we truly embrace it, Jacksonville will continue to fall short in the effort to take full advantage of it's unique and valuable assets.

Nevertheless, you are right that crying about our problems won't get us anywhere.  However, the first step to recovery is first admitting you have an addiction.  Our's is a mixture of ignorance and a lack of will to do better.  If we can correct those things, everything else will fall in line.

[thelakelander]

Don't let the door hit you on your way out of town....
Written by cinch2win, Friday, June 15, 2007 at 12:45:16 am EDT

If life is so bad in Jacksonville, I am sure that some other Magic Kingdom would welcome you in with buildings made of gold and sidewalks lined with dollar bills. When you find it, let me know.

Orlando and Atlanta downtowns only thrive because of attractions down there. In Atlanta, the underground Atlanta experiment failed because they could not get enough people down there on a continual basis, freaknik, and other incidents did not help it. For the most part downtown Atlanta, downtown, not midtown or Art Center, is deserted after 5 with only tourists and conventioneers there. If the Atlanta Mart were not there, it would really only be populated with people from Georgia State. How many people hang around after 5 at FCCJ?

I was just in Downtown Atlanta for Memorial Day weekend a few weeks ago.  Like the Landing, Atlanta's Underground went down the tubes years ago, but as of Memorial Day, it was loaded with stores and shoppers.  We'd all do back flips into the St. Johns River if the Landing could pull in half the amount of shops located at the Underground.
 

Orlando has the same problem, but Mickey allows people to come downtown and there is an excuse.

Those two downtowns have taken different paths to redevelopment.  Atlanta's has been more tourist oriented with Olympic Park and it's adjacent network of attractions, while Orlando's has come back by being local oriented and becoming a neighborhood first.  The thing that both embrace is "connectivity".  If we can do the same, we'll see a higher level of revitalization and success, as well.

There is no such draw or attraction to our downtown, but anyone who has lived here most of their life, knows that once May Cohen's shut down in the late 80s, our downtown is much better than that time period.

I'd make the argument that we have more attractions (than Orlando) to draw people to our core.  Off the top of my head, the river, MOSH, the Landing, farmer's market, Cummer, the riverwalk and a host of other things are things a place like Orlando would kill for to have in it's core.  Unfortunately, we'd rather market golf courses in St. Johns County and wildlife preserves.

While I am not entralled with spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a new convention center, perhaps that is needed to keep people downtown. Perhaps we should scrap the Shipyards and turn the property into an amusement park. I am sure that the people in St. Nicholas who voted down a proposal for more outdoor concerts at WJCT, would just love a non-stop noise maker like that in their views of downtown.

One trick gimmicks to attract suburbanites won't work.  We've been applying that method for decades now with limited success.  Downtown has to become it's on self sufficient neighborhood first.  Even in Atlanta, there's a decent amount of people living in and near downtown.  So for downtown's long term success focusing on increasing the amount of market rate housing available and making sure all existing an future development is connected in a pedestrian-oriented manner are musts.

There is no easy answer, but those who want to bury their head in the dirt or parking lot, go ahead and remain the short-sighted pessimistic people you are. It takes all kinds to make the world go round.[/quote]

[thelakelander]

Here's an interesting observation.  Look at the aerial showing city property and find the one area in the core, that contains existing building fabric and not dominated with property owned by the city or Hionides.

Its Adams Street, which also happens to be the strip filling up with lofts and restaurants.  Just goes to show the things we've been advocating here actually work, when given a chance to bloom.  

Now we just have to keep JTA away from ruining that stretch with BRT.

[SeaEmBee]

What Jacksonville lacks is a good old-fashioned URBAN PLANNING VISION. Even if you think the Downtown Master Plan sucks, it's better than haphazardly throwing buildings around. Our downtown has beautiful bones, but our community needs more imagination and the will to pay for the transformation. Tampa spent a half-billion dollars over the last 15 years to improve its downtown. Guess what? Jacksonville even has a larger tax base than Tampa. Are we game?   :'(

[JUSTDAVE]

Is an asset really an asset if because you own it you are not getting income.

[cinch2win]

than we do here. Many big bank HQs are in Tampa as well. We are smaller player than Tampa, but we are growing and expanding. I think that in 10 years, we will be a lot more like Atlanta to our North, than to the cities to our South, because we have so much undeveloped land that is still being developed. Median new home prices of 150-160-170 are going to allow people to move to new homes further out and then have to drive to more places. Same issue in Atlanta. Now ATL has tried to save downtown, but they had a little think called the Olympics back in 96 and that pumped a TON of money into Centennial Park and other downtown spots, but they also have Coca-Cola and Home Depot and much more money than us too. We don't have the money in this town that ATL or TPA do, but we are working on it, one golf course development at a time.

We are just stuck somewhere between Tampa to the South and Atlanta to the North, but we can follow their models, learn from their mistakes, and hopefully we can stay out of SMOG alerts for as long as possible.

[EP]

Orlando implemented good planning policies.  They spurred investment by creating a mixed-use zone directly south of Lake Eola that connects the downtown core to Thornton Park, one of Orlando's best historic neighborhoods.  Now they are reaping the rewards; condo towers, downtown residents, new bars, new restaurants and a ton of pedestrian foot traffic.  It even more attractive to live in the historic district, because you can walk through a vibrant urban area on your way to the downtown nightlife or work.  Even with the planning framework, there is still virtually no retail in downtown Orlando...

[Jason]

I've been spending a TON of time in Orlando these past few weeks and will be down there a ton more (my wife had our baby early while we were down on vacation).  I have to say that the urban core of the city of Orlando is lightyears ahead of us.  There is very little underutilized space or surface lots.  There is plenty of life to be had surrounding the CBD and every new development I've seen has been pedestrian friendly (well much moreso than here).  Building have been spared from the wrecking ball and are allowing all of the benefits Lakelander has been repeating on these boards for years. 

[Flyboy]

Its not a "blank slate",  its an urban core that lost its residential population over 40 years ago, followed by the loss of retailers in the mid 80's, followed by the predictable loss of large office renters in the 90's.

Look at what little Savannah did with its down town. The SCAD (Savannah College of Art & Design) started buying up those bargain buildings over 20 years ago and the student population became a residential base and cheap local labor source. When the parents come to visit their budding art students they eat in town, stay in town, and continue to make it an end destination.

With gas prices increasing, it would seem that reasonable rental residential units in the down town core would be sought after by the work force and a  primary goal of the city fathers. Instead of griping about investors like Mr Hionidies that don't develop the kind of end product you think is needed...do something about it. Contact your elected representatives and push for tax incentives to rebuild old buildings in the Central business district. Especially if they are used for mixed use retail and rental residential.

We have some developers that deserve our support, instead of brickbats. Take a look at what is planned at the old Main Branch Library and The Baystreet project.

The banks want these developers to have 60% to 70% of these spaces under contract before they agree to front any construction money. Why not have the city be an additional guarantor to prime the pump?

If we have a growing residential base, and incentives for retail , its only a matter of time before companies will want to have office spaces down town too.

[toneloc007]

The powers that be clearly do not 'get it'.  Footdragging and ridiculous ideas for the Landing, purposeless pocket parks, indecision on the courthouse, BRT, eliminating retail in the Haverty building,  and the list goes on.

Yes, the potential for something great is still there, but every day that is spent heading in the wrong direction is that much more work it is going to take to realize that potential, and Jax is already years behind Atlanta, Orlando and a whole host of other cities.  Montgomery will likely be added to the list if the trend continues.    

I agree...I've seen it more now that my partners and I are looking into opening up our own night venue downtown and the more we look at properties it amazes us as to how much potential there is here.  If only more people would start thinking about the future of this city, it would start to show some progress.  Its been like this for way too long. 

[Keith-N-Jax]

I dont think it will ever happen here. Unless more residents start caring or better leadership gets in place, because the current one we have is clueless. Sadly to say neither will happen anytime soon, perhaps never. Being born and raised here and knowing how this city thinks be prepared to either be in a wheelchair or dead before we see anything like what Charlotte or even Tampa is doing, and when it comes to cities like Atlanta, San Diego and Seattle your children and their children will be dead. It just wont happen here isnt it obvious. The Homeless enjoy downtown more than we do. I am sure the homeless here have contacted their fellow homeless buddies in other cities and told them that Jax is the place to be,,plenty of parks to sleep in and chat with buddies on the river front and city leaders like to feed you. Its paradise,,they dont care what the tax paying people want.


If there was ever a time for Jax to kick start and start catching up it was before,during and after the Super Bowl,,but nooooooooo what did we do after the clock struck midnight the horse and carriage turned into two homeless people with rats for pets and cinderella moved back north. Atleast we have a blue bridge with lights that dont work,a river walk falling apart,,a heart bridge with working lights, a landing deal that landed no where, river watch river what, Shipyards collapsing, a court debacle, a city rich with land they own, surface lots that make the Serengetti look small and my favorite the BIG IDEA from our wonderful mayor, Jax has a bright future.

[Coolyfett]

Everyone, get ahold of yourselves.  I can understand being a little down about the old church (it was just from the 50s though) coming down and the blight that is Hionides, but to think that Atlanta has a superior downtown is absurd.  I have spent considerable time in that place and I can say that this is utterly ridiculous.  Downtown Atlanta is basically unsafe due to hordes of thugs and bums far worse than anything ever seen in Jax.  I dont mean to demean the city, but Jacksonville's downtown beats it hands down.  We have a superior location and physical beauty, a lot of great remaining historic buildings which are being converted to residential or have already been converted, a growing downtown population and the interest of many out of town developers. 

I totally disagree, I have never had any problem with bums in downtown Atlanta, and thugs stay in line when downtown, now Bankhead, Eastpoint or College Park that is another story, but downtown is safe as hell man. Both Downtown and Midtown are pretty safe. Downtown Jacksonville is a lil cleaner than Downtown Atlanta. Downtown Jacksonville just needs more destinations. Maybe about 6 or 7 cool/interesting/tourist places to visit. They dont need to go to La Villa or Springfield but they do need to be downtown. For example, The corner of Beaver Street and Davis street where the 1901 Fire started is WIDE OPEN!! Nothing is there....did someone say museum??? Or is it the Firestation at Metropolitian Park? Bay Street Station is coming hopefully. How bout the RIVERFRONT DISTRICT?? The actually true name of everything on Bay & Forsyth Street...Yes that area is the RIVERFRONT DISTRICT lol the name no one ever uses. "Bing bing BING the next stop is Riverfront Station, get off here for City Hall Annex, Florida Theater, JSO Headquarters, Courthouse, The Hyatt & Riverfront District" Downtown Jax needs more destinations. About 6 or 7 short.