Court rules - Florida Students can keep guns

[spuwho]

Per the Chicago Tribune

Bill Cotterell
Reuters
5:00 p.m. CST, December 11, 2013


TALLAHASSEE, Florida (Reuters) - Students attending public universities in Florida can keep weapons in their cars while on campus, a state appeals court has ruled.

The ruling by the 1st District Court of Appeals came in a case brought by a University of North Florida (UNF) student who challenged the school's policy barring firearms because she wanted to store a gun in her car for self-defense.

In a 12-3 ruling on Tuesday, the appeals court said the Florida Legislature ultimately holds the power to regulate guns, trumping local governments and universities. For decades, the Legislature has spurned tighter gun control.

Under Florida state law, guns are banned on university property but an exception allows them to be kept in cars.

"If the issue in this case involved the right of a student to carry a firearm in the classroom or at a sporting event, our analysis would be different," said the ruling, written by Judge Clay Roberts.

"There are certain places where firearms can be legally prohibited, but the Legislature has recognized that a citizen who is going to be in one of these places should be able to keep a firearm securely encased within his or her vehicle," he wrote.

The case arose when Alexandria Lainez, a member of Florida Carry Inc., a gun rights group, sought a court order to allow her to keep a pistol locked in her vehicle during classes at the University of North Florida.

A circuit court denied her request. Lainez and Florida Carry appealed the ruling.

The university argued it should have authority to ban weapons on campus, just as county school boards can prevent otherwise legal carrying of guns in elementary, middle and high schools.

State law allows school districts to keep guns out of public schools, but the appeals court ruled that universities are not a type of school district.

"The Legislature has pre-empted UNF from independently regulating firearms," said the ruling, which drew a patchwork of five concurring opinions, with several judges agreeing with different parts of the majority decision.

Justice Phil Padavano wrote a terse dissent, saying universities have authority over students unlike the rules that apply to the public at large.

"No one would doubt that a university has the power to prohibit a student from smoking in a dormitory or drinking an alcoholic beverage on campus, even though smoking and drinking may be perfectly lawful in other circumstances," Padavano wrote.

The legal issue of "pre-empting" all gun-control authority to the decidedly pro-gun state Legislature is expected to be taken up in the 2014 legislative session.

A former National Rifle Association president said on Wednesday there appears little chance of allowing any local governments or state agencies to regulate weapons access.

"Most of these students are adults, over 18, and the universities have no such authority over them," Marion Hammer, the long-time lobbyist for Unified Sportsmen of Florida, argued.

Democrats have introduced two bills in the House and Senate to restore legal authority to cities and counties to adopt gun regulation, but neither has been set for a committee hearing.

"I think the Legislature understands that part of its duty to uphold the Constitution includes defending the Second Amendment," Hammer said.

[Tacachale]

UNF is considering whether to appeal this appeal, which came in against the previous court decision that public universities are entitled to regulate guns on their own property.

[carpnter]

All this did was put hundreds of students over 21 who commute to campus on the right side of the law.  There are already guns in cars on the campus, and this change isn't going to make the campus any less secure than it already is. 

[Tacachale]

The ruling is going to have some consequences that will need to be sorted out. The law as written excludes schools from the entities where guns in cars are allowed, but in another place says "school districts." This ruling is based on the idea that public universities are not school districts, however by that definition private schools and day cares aren't either. Clearly that's something that needs to be sorted out, one way or another.

[carpnter]

The ruling is going to have some consequences that will need to be sorted out. The law as written excludes schools from the entities where guns in cars are allowed, but in another place says "school districts." This ruling is based on the idea that public universities are not school districts, however by that definition private schools and day cares aren't either. Clearly that's something that needs to be sorted out, one way or another.

Private schools and day cares are private businesses and they can decide whether or not to allow guns on their property.

[Tacachale]

The ruling is going to have some consequences that will need to be sorted out. The law as written excludes schools from the entities where guns in cars are allowed, but in another place says "school districts." This ruling is based on the idea that public universities are not school districts, however by that definition private schools and day cares aren't either. Clearly that's something that needs to be sorted out, one way or another.

Private schools and day cares are private businesses and they can decide whether or not to allow guns on their property.

No, they can't. Businesses and other entities can't prohibit people from keeping guns in their cars, even on their own property. Schools are given as one of the exceptions. However, according to this ruling, it only applies to "school districts", which excludes the colleges, but would also exclude private schools and daycares. The wording in the law is going to have to change one way or the other.

[JayBird]

Thanks for posting this thread, I was always under the impression that the interior, secure portion of your vehicle was an extension of you personal property. So that regardless of where it was parked, a gun kept locked in your vehicle was no different than being locked in a nightstand lockbox.

Not a carrier myself, but personally I feel if Florida was an open carry state most people would be able to understand the laws so much easier. There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there.

[acme54321]

All this did was put hundreds of students over 21 who commute to campus on the right side of the law.  There are already guns in cars on the campus, and this change isn't going to make the campus any less secure than it already is.

This.  UF has a no gun policy.  I bet thousands come on campus in gloveboxes sand center consoles every gameday.  There is no harm in keeping a weapon in your car.

[Tacachale]

Thanks for posting this thread, I was always under the impression that the interior, secure portion of your vehicle was an extension of you personal property. So that regardless of where it was parked, a gun kept locked in your vehicle was no different than being locked in a nightstand lockbox.

Not a carrier myself, but personally I feel if Florida was an open carry state most people would be able to understand the laws so much easier. There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there.

Indeed, there's a lot of misinformation out there. The law (which dates to 2008 I think) is about businesses and similar entities. Essentially, if you have a business, in most cases you can't prohibit employees, customers and other "invitees" from having a secured gun in their car in your lot even if it's your own property. Of course private citizens have the right not to allow people to have guns on their property.

The issue here is that schools are specifically named as one of the exceptions. This appellate court ruling is that the exception only applies to "school districts", so public universities aren't included. Again, this gets into murky territory, as private schools and day cares also aren't included, as they're also not part of "school districts."

All this did was put hundreds of students over 21 who commute to campus on the right side of the law.  There are already guns in cars on the campus, and this change isn't going to make the campus any less secure than it already is.

This.  UF has a no gun policy.  I bet thousands come on campus in gloveboxes sand center consoles every gameday.  There is no harm in keeping a weapon in your car.

UF and the other state universities do have gun policies (basically the same as UNF), however they would be voided when this ruling takes effect.

[carpnter]

UNF just sent an e-mail out saying that they will not be appealing the decision and they have modified the code of conduct to reflect the court ruling. 

[coredumped]

Justice Phil Padavano wrote a terse dissent, saying universities have authority over students unlike the rules that apply to the public at large.

"No one would doubt that a university has the power to prohibit a student from smoking in a dormitory or drinking an alcoholic beverage on campus, even though smoking and drinking may be perfectly lawful in other circumstances," Padavano wrote.

Universities can prohibit smoking and drinking because 1) drinking in public is already a crime, and 2) banning smoking is socially acceptable/harmful to others.

Universities have NO special authority over students and I find that to be a very arrogant statement. Because you walk on a public (read: tax paid) university, does not mean they're above the law and/or constitution.

This is a good decision by the court, and thankfully UNF won't be wasting any more tax money chasing after legal students. Murder is already a crime, banning guns from campus won't stop that.

[coredumped]

huh?

Where'd I lose ya?

[acme54321]

All this did was put hundreds of students over 21 who commute to campus on the right side of the law.  There are already guns in cars on the campus, and this change isn't going to make the campus any less secure than it already is.

This.  UF has a no gun policy.  I bet thousands come on campus in gloveboxes sand center consoles every gameday.  There is no harm in keeping a weapon in your car.

UF and the other state universities do have gun policies (basically the same as UNF), however they would be voided when this ruling takes effect.

Yeah that is what I was saying.  There is a no gun policy at UF but it doesn't stop people from bringing them onto campus in cars.  This will not make campus any less safe is what I was getting at.

[coredumped]

A dormitory is 'private'.

Seems pretty clear.  You lost me immediately after this part of the stream

Yes a dorm is private - lots of places have "rules" like adult-only communities. What I was saying is that universities are not above the law, and they should not waste their time fighting this as it's moot (hence my last comment about shooting teachers already being illegal).
This just makes it legal for people who have probably always been in compliance.

[carpnter]

A dormitory is 'private'.

Seems pretty clear.  You lost me immediately after this part of the stream

Yes a dorm is private - lots of places have "rules" like adult-only communities. What I was saying is that universities are not above the law, and they should not waste their time fighting this as it's moot (hence my last comment about shooting teachers already being illegal).
This just makes it legal for people who have probably always been in compliance.

So bring on the smoking and drinking on campus then?

Dormitories are on campus and smoking is banned inside nearly every building that is open to the public already, so the school can regulate smoking inside them.  You can purchase alcohol on UNF's campus at the Boathouse in the Student Union, I don't know what the rules are in the dorms, but they do keep an eye on underage drinking. You can currently smoke outside at UNF if you are at least 10' away from the buildings and not in any covered walkway area, although that is regularly ignored by students who smoke.  UF does ban smoking on its campus and I think UNF may ban smoking on campus starting in August 2014.   I do believe that the non-smoking students were tired of walking through the second hand smoke of the jerks who ignored the rules and pressed the Student Government to make this change to the smoking regulations.