What Would You Like Downtown Jacksonville to Become?

[Kerry]

^^^Point taken. Although I have my doubts that the entire corridor of I-75 in ATL is dead. I understand that it isn't cool to agree with anything I-10east says on MJ, oh well...

I have spent most of the last 6 years working in Atlanta and can tell you first hand that if you want to fear for your life hangout for a few minutes along any interstate corridor after dark, and in same cases at noon.  There is some scary stuff going on underneath those elevated freeways.  A few months ago I wanted to go to Gladys Knight's Chicken and Waffles.  Checking the ole' watch, calculating how long it would take me to eat, cross referencing sunset, and taking a look at the local population - I decided to walk down and get a Vortex burger.

Downtown Atlanta is very lively after sunset but the contrast between the I-75/85 connector corridor and other parts of downtown/midtown is startling.  One area where it isn't so bad though is 5th St where GT spills over into Midtown.  However, you can't see the connector from 5th St thanks to a 200' wide overpass with high walls.

[I-10east]

^^^Fair enough. I'm not gonna act like I'm an Atlanta expert.

[Kerry]

No worries I-10east.  I just wanted to set the record straight.

[Ocklawaha]

Does downtown Jax have a TIF district?

Take it from an old COWBOY Kerry, by and large, Jaxson's can't even spell 'TIF.'

[HangingMoth]

My view (one that is not as well informed as others might be) is that Jacksonville seems to be caught between wanting more and offering less. To be more specific, Jacksonville offers low cost of living and low taxes, which draws people and companies here for that reason. On the flip side, our residents are wanting more amenities, entertainment and overall higher quality of living.  Most people know what makes a lively city on the surface; entertainment districts, museums, aquariums, ferris wheels,  etc. These would all be great for Jax, but of course how will it be paid for? Can Jacksonville come up with an 'indefinite'  better Jacksonville plan that takes  a slight increase on sales tax to pay for some of these amenities? I know this might not be feasible, since even the mobility fee has kinda flopped, but as citizens should we not be willing to help pay for these projects? Where do we find the middle ground between low taxes/cost of living and having a vibrant city? I love Jacksonville, it's a comfortable, diverse, beautiful and always interesting place to live. But I do recognize that we have our shortcomings, one of which is that there is always a lot of talk with out nearly as much follow through. I wish Mr. Wallace all the best and hopefully he can get some things stirred up. Anyways, just some rambling and semi-deep thoughts.... 

[Ocklawaha]

With a name like I-10east I shouldn't be surprised in your opposition to removing auto-only transportation systems.

Many urban 'auto-only transportation systems' have ZERO effect on pedestrians, and autos on the ground, like the Hart Bridge ramp for example....

Not to start this whole stupid yours is smaller then mine argument again, but herein is an EXCELLENT POINT, I don't suspect I-10E or anyone else thought this through.

Auto-only urban transportation systems have ZERO effect on pedestrians (purely a perception BTW) because they are paid for with tax payer dollars and built, NOT FOR PEOPLE - BUT FOR VEHICLES. Just today off US-1 in Nocatee I noticed signs saying 'NO PEDESTRIANS, BICYCLES, MOPEDS OR MOTOR DRIVEN BIKES ALLOWED'. Think about this for a minute. You are locked into the slowest and second slowest means of transport in an urban core, IE: foot and bike, and rather then being able to take the shortest route, you are literally limited to just two places to cross the river, and one direct road from the beaches to the core.

Try walking from Publix at the Town Center to Barnes and Noble, or from Barnes and Noble to Costco and the truth will smack you upside the head like a frozen mullet. We are literally taxing people in order to ban them from safety and logical pathways and handing those same routes over to the tin lizzies.

Does this mean rubber tired transport is bad? Not at all (though we all know secretly that it IS satanic) LOL. But the concepts being advanced here are on the cutting edge of modern urban thought. Removing a lane here and there, adding a tree, a bench, a fountain, a bike lane or ciclovia schedule actually increases the retail and restaurant receipts. The quality of life goes up, and the stresses go down, when a easy solution is presented to people rather then restricted to machines.


Ciclovia is a regularly scheduled day or weekend where certain streets across the core are closed to motor vehicles, it usually starts with local concerts, fitness sessions and is followed by a mass migration OUTDOORS.




This is the start of Ciclovia on a Bogota street.

HOW HARD WOULD IT BE? Imagine if Jacksonville could equal some of Colombia's 'complete streets?' Viewing some of these photos of my other 'home' and one starts to understand why I've said, 'i went to Colombia looking for the 3rd World and found it when my plane returned to Jacksonville.' (all photos Bogota)

[heights unknown]

What it would've, could've become had the 2008 economic downturn and crash had not happened. If we all remember, there were several planned skyscrapers (high rise) on the drawing boards (planned/proposed) and because of the economy and the crash, they never were built. Who knows how the building of these projects and developments would have impacted and affected downtown had they been built? Just a thought.

[Kerry]

I remember multiple high-rise developments proposed but if all they did was add traffic to the road without providing any pedestrian oriented qualities that improve the public realm we might have in fact dodged a bullet.  Dubai has tons of residential skyscrapers - but traffic is a nightmare and you can't walk anywhere.  I don't see any pedestrian activity along the southbank condos except for people walking their pets or people exercising.  Despite the local population there is no retail, sidewalk cafes, or anything.  All the inconveniences of urban living with none of the benefits.

[Bill Hoff]

Ock,

The ciclovia concept has spread across the US (and world), from big cities to small towns.

Check out The Open Streets Project on Facebook. Lots of great material on there.

Tony Allegretti was poking around this idea a couple years ago, but it never materialized.

[Ocklawaha]

To me the shame of this situation is that while we might someday have our own ciclovia weekends in Jacksonville, I doubt the city will ever embrace the alternative transportation modes such as we enjoyed in Medellin, or Bogota, or Cali, or Cartagena, or Santa Marta, or... The CICLOVIA JACKSONVILLE idea is a low hanging fruit that someone like Don Redman could propose. VISIT JACKSONVILLE and the DOWNTOWN VISION should give a few of us a call and see how it is done.
Imagine closing off Adams and Monroe, from Lee to Liberty Streets; Water and Independence in their entirety; Newnan and Hogan Streets, south of Monroe; Market Street between 1St and Adams; Lee Street in its entirety; Park Street from Margaret to Water Streets. Invite the 'Art Walk' crowds to populate the downtown and tell the whole city to come downtown with their tennis shoes, bikes, walkers, canes, wheelchairs, pogo sticks, skate boards, skates, unicycles and little red wagons. From Riverside to Springfield, and from Fairfield to Durkeeville, one big fluid party from 9 to 5!

As for the bikeways and metro rail projects, you'll have to visit Chicago, Minneapolis or Medellin, if you want to see how the 1St World lives!

Jacksonville could easily equal their world-class neighbors by building the rapid-streetcar (streetcar that doesn't share right-of-way and operates much like Light-Rail) alongside the bike trail from Gateway Mall to 21St Street (station) then south between Springfield and Eastside along the old abandoned F&J Railroad alignment all the way south to Beaver Street, behind the Arena parking garage. Tie this to an urban cross-town link extending from the stadium area to Riverside and we'd have a transit-bikeway combination that really would be among the worlds best.

Let's do this, Nate Ford? Give me a call!

[ProjectMaximus]

I-10,  I've generally empathized with your sentiments at least somewhat and have felt you were treated unfairly most of the time. Gotta say though that you've gone overboard here. Obviously you know something that all urban planners and theorists don't.

Dubai has tons of residential skyscrapers - but traffic is a nightmare and you can't walk anywhere. 

To be fair, Dubai does have some pedestrian-friendly walkable corridors. But as you say, it's definitely true that skyscrapers hardly equate to walkability.

[I-10east]

I-10,  I've generally empathized with your sentiments at least somewhat and have felt you were treated unfairly most of the time. Gotta say though that you've gone overboard here. Obviously you know something that all urban planners and theorists don't.

Thanks PM for the first take. Then you said that I went 'overboard', that's a pretty strong word. I try to stay reasonable and REALISTIC with my comments, and many people confuse that as being 'complacent' or 'suburban-minded'. Some things will NOT be changed (Hart Bridge ramp, the Main Street Bridge ramps, State, Union, Ocean, Main traffic patterns) whether you like it or not; Someone will say 'You don't know that', well I have very strong opinions, and there they are. No one in their right minds with the DOT isn't trying to reduce any lanes on them major arteries (making them two-way will reduce lanes).

I guess that the 'urban planners and theorists' rather worry about things that have little impact on the core, instead of building within it. I'm looking at things like the Chase DT, the tech company in the Greenleaf & Crosby, the Laura Trio, the Barnett Building which hopefully will get Florida Blue you know, things that matter; Not something that's controlled by the DOT, and will never change. The Hart Bridge ramp doesn't interfere with traffic at all, it's convenient, and it keeps tailgaters cool and protects people from the rain; the Fuller Warren Bridge also protects people during the Riverside Arts Market; I guess since that bridge only carries auto traffic, there's no need for that either. My thing is if possible, do not tear down any DT infrastructure, and continue working on the core, which doesn't sound extreme at all to me.

I remember when a short time poster said something about extreme people on certain websites. I would like to think that MJ is open-minded, but the more and more times when it seems like you can't have an opinion about something (that's not even extreme) the more I think the he was right. My whole new thing is 'agree to disagree', which is cordial, and not confrontational; Atleast after the first disagreement. Maybe that's a better way of going about things, instead of one person being quintuple-teamed against.

 

[thelakelander]

Speaking of FDOT and the Hart Bridge ramps, it's not like FDOT is swimming around in cash these days.  Since they don't carry a ton of traffic and literally most of the industries underneath them have closed, been relocated or demolished, when the time comes to pay a couple of hundred million to replace them, don't be so quick to not expect FDOT to evaluate alternatives.  One of those alternatives could be to bring the thing down to grade and integrate into the existing street grid. DOTs have been doing that across the country with aging infrastructure that has lived its life and isn't needed anymore.

[JayePorter]

Adding to the conversation about downtown - here's an observation from an outsider:

I attended art walk last night for the first time.  I've been downtown before, but it was always to drive to my destination & then leave. This time I really paid attention to my surroundings.

1) The architecture is beautiful. The Klutho buildings, even the new high-rises, the library, the expensive monolith of the new courthouse - there is a lot to be said there. So worth preserving what's left. But you know that...

2) Hemming Plaza is a disaster. Shame on the city for that! Not even water in the fountain. You won't make the homeless go away until society gets a handle on the drug & job issues. In the meantime, why let the park go to ruin like that?

3) Downtown is DARK. The lighting for the art walk was terrible - I could barely see some of the wares the vendors were selling.  The streetscapes were dark too. Too many dark alleys! I have spent alot of time in various cities and I wouldn't walk around Jax by myself after 5.  I don't think I'm out of the ordinary either.

4) Signage downtown is non-existent; and unless you're heading to the stadium from the highway, there's no way to figure out how to get any place else.  Not good. I was looking for the Ritz Theater the other day -- during daylight hours -- and between the one-way streets and the lack of landmarks in that part of town (one empty lot looks alot like the others) I couldn't find it. Half the time I don't even know what something is until I'm there, and I'm not just an out of towner - I probably know about the location and more about various venues then some of the suburbanites of Jax I've hung out with (I've even been to the old city cemetery to take photographs). But I always feel like "Oh, THAT"S where this is"...

5) A real lack of police presence. Other than some guys on duty to monitor traffic, I saw more of the "downtown ambassadors". Say what you want about the efficiency of mounted police or bike cops or even a uniform just walking a beat, you need that physical presence to deter crime and let people feel safe.  Most of the time I see the police driving through downtown like they want to get out of there.  I realize Jax is a huge place and there are alot of areas to cover, but you're never going to get downtown up & running without them.

6) I noticed some of the stores downtown that are open & operating look very uninviting. A jewelry store with dust on the shelves, restaurants not opened up to the sidewalk, etc. Is there a merchants association or some incentive to assist downtown merchants??

I live in the burbs but I spend a lot of time and money in Riverside & Downtown. I really liked the energy of the people involved in Art Walk last night. I also went to the Casket Factory party & talked to alot of people - there are so many people interested in making the city work - it's awesome. It's funny but everyone always asks me "What do you think of Jacksonville" like they are afraid of my answer. I tell them I love it, and I do. I'm certainly no expert in city planning and probably have nothing new to add to the conversation but I felt really passionate about my experience last night and wanted to chime in.

[fsujax]

Great observations JayePorter. You are right Downtown is very dark and many store fronts just don't get it.