Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[Tacachale]

And the true colors come out. Merry Christmas, y'all.

[icarus]

"JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) — A Florida school board has decided to end a decades-long controversy and rename a high school now named for a Confederate general and honorary Ku Klux Klan leader that some historical records say ordered the execution of hundreds of black Union soldiers.

The Duval County School Board said it was following the will of its students Monday when it voted unanimously to change the name of Nathan B. Forrest High in Jacksonville. The change will take place next year once a new name is chosen, said Superintendent Nikolai Vitti.

"What I want is for students at Nathan Bedford Forrest to use this as a civics lesson," Vitti said. He said he hopes students realize that they can make a difference.

Vitti said a majority of students surveyed voiced support for dropping Forrest's name, given his history as a slave trader and some accounts that blame him for issuing an order to execute captured black Union soldiers during the Civil War.

Vitti said he will now conduct a survey to decide the school's new name. The school board is expected to decide the new name early next year.

"Everybody is glad about it," De'jia Boatwright, a 15-year old 10th grader at the school.

About half of the faculty and a majority of alumni surveyed disagreed with the name change, but 64 percent of students at the black-majority high school were in favor of dropping the name. The school board said it based its decision on what the students wanted.

The name of the school has been a source of controversy for decades, with school officials continuously refusing to change it despite numerous protests."



Read more: http://www.myfoxny.com/Story/24243275/fla-school-named-for-south-general-to-be-changed#ixzz2npgI0Iyl
Follow us: @myfoxny on Twitter | Fox5NY on Facebook

[BridgeTroll]

What did you prove through this entire conversation? nothing....nothing righteous....you only showed your intense bigotry.

You may have proved that you started this tirade thinking you had grounds for this renaming but at the end we all know that the FACTS do not back up the action.  You have now LYNCHED a man from history so there is no more sympathy for a black minority.  It is clear that there is now a new minority and it is not black people.

It should be known that a common thought through the Civil Rights Movement was that "Racism" required power to really exist. I would submit that discrediting a General of the Confederacy who held this union together after the Civil war with a complete LIE is "power". We have a Black President and a Black Mayor. Racism is rampant in hiring practices and promotion throughout our entire government as we speak. MERIT is dead. Government is now a trough for the lazy to skate by until they can collect a pension. This in only true however if you are part of the right club.

We are going to become a nation that looks like Detroit.  You support this and are part of it. Somehow our green horn School board is part of it too. Vitti is a full blown idiot and I can not believe we pay him to destroy our culture. (350k right?) I mean look at him....totally inept and now he can claim this lie and run back to the north and brag how he fixed a wrong (that did not exist).  We should buy him a suit made of carpet! I never thought we could do worse than the weirdo guy before Pratt Daniels...now I cry for PD to return! We did not know what we had. It is obviously time to break up the school district. It has never been this clear before. Consolidation does not work for our school district.

I was asked to obey the "rules of civility" a few times on this site while that very person speaking this practiced the lowest of measures to win an argument without facts.  I was surprised because without me there WAS NO INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION on this site.  When I stopped posting this thread died.  You guys are bought and paid for because otherwise you would see that there was no factual reason to do this act. You were hired to make this change seem "okay."  You failed. I can claim that fact.

Every point  I made was ignored and every point was deflected. You begged for source and I gave it to you. We PROVED that Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK and yet that did not matter.

IT STILL DOES NOT MATTER. It only matters than a crazed racist black majority in Memphis needs to be legitimized. I guess Obama and Mayor Brown are there to help. 

Southern white strong regional heroes are on the chopping block. Before long little white girls will be picking out black dolls as a preference (converse to Clark study). Before long people will not be able to imagine white leaders. When does this stop? 

Life will go on but intellectual debate is over. It does not matter. At this point there is no discourse that is intelligent. This is now about power. The truth no longer matters and merit is dead.  You are but a salesmen and no longer a historian worth respect. 

When intellectual discourse is over then what? Think about this....you lynched a dead man who helped you. It took generations of lies and generations of fabrication but it finally has come to pass.

One can only hope that intellectual middle ground will be re-established or I fear for all our futures. I hope and trust that our respect for real history is not over.  It will be a while but I yearn for the next election. This vote will not be forgotten.

First off... wow.  I will start by saying I never really cared one way or the other about the name.  From what I have seen the KKK claim is probably overblown.  Of course there is no denying the slave owner/buyer/seller aspect of NBF's past.  Renaming the school Firestone will hurt no one and the NBF name will be forgotten by students in 2 or 3 years.

But sgarey... you did just show your true colors.  Any sympathy you may have garnered for your cause evaporated with your last post.  I am sure the students, faculty, and parents are glad this is over and we can all move on.  Well... most of us will...

[thelakelander]

^Only if she has the hots for a black Ken.

[aurjay]

In the book Hooded Americanism: A History of the Klan, the author states that Nathan Bedford Forrest was the Imperial Wizard and even tried to disband the Klan in 1869.

In the book the Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the author states that Forrest told a friend afterwards that he " lied like a gentleman" in front of the congressional committee in 1871.

As for being humane in his treatment of his slaves. In Jack Hurst's Biography on Forrest he states that Forrest and his brother John whipped a slave woman with a whip dipped in salt water. Another slave was whipped to death. In Jack Hursts book he also goes on to say that whippings were quite common in the slave yard and that is was considered more humane and kind in the long run to make a horrific example of a slave that broke the rules so as to keep the other slaves in line. As for keeping families together. Slaves would be lined up by gender and then height so to make it less uncomfortable for the buyer. The thinking is that the buyer wouldn't be guilted into buying a whole family.

Forrest was a slave trader and for the most part did take care of his stock. Just like any shop owner doesn't want to sell you broken or damaged goods neither did slave owners. That's why when an example had to be made,  it was made horrifically, so as to scare the other slaves into submission. It was better to damage one slave beyond selling in hopes that the other slaves would mind the rules and avoid the whip.


http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=2bLU20MbUl4C&oi=fnd&pg=PR11&dq=nathan+bedford+forrest+klan+membership&ots=tjG9EpoP_B&sig=W4f5wN4RdbjUY9zITPuSdRrxQU0#v=onepage&q=nathan%20bedford%20forrest%20klan%20membership&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tY0p3gZhMTkC&pg=PA61&dq=forrest+lied+like+a+gentleman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z82xUrLWAYS7kQeV-oD4Cg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=forrest%20lied%20like%20a%20gentleman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=forrest+whipped+a+slave+with+salted+leather&source=bl&ots=OtPI6fI6QM&sig=fq-OGHGV_gyHpN21CPDPyBSP7j4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=486xUo_jAdDlkAfkv4CIDQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=forrest%20whipped%20a%20slave%20with%20salted%20leather&f=false

[BridgeTroll]

Awesome first post aurjay... Welcome to the Forum! 

[blizz01]

In a somewhat related topic:
Southern Discomfort: U.S. Army seeks removal of Lee, 'Stonewall' Jackson honors

Revisionist history would remove portraits of Confederate legends

"I do know at least one person has questioned why we would honor individuals who were enemies of the United States Army"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/17/robert-e-lee-and-stonewall-jackson-tributes-face-a/?page=1

[Tacachale]

Interesting quote from Superintendent Vitti on the original naming:

If you look at the history of the naming of Nathan B. Forrest High School, the students originally wanted the school to be named Valhalla. Politics reigned and as a response to desegregation and the civil rights movement, the school was named Nathan B. Forrest. That was not the will of the students, and considering the opinion of the students in this process, I think it is an opportunity to give voice to students whose voices were not heard in the beginning and can certainly be heard now.

Clearly it's becoming better recognized that the Forrest name was originally chosen as a swipe at the Civil Rights Movement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/16/school-named-after-kkk-grand-wizard-to-be-renamed-finally/

[theduvalprogressive]

That's all the renaming of Valhalla High School was about.

[Sgarey123]

Yeah so now I am hearing rumor that the Student surveys were in favor of keeping name. So was the alumni survey and teacher survey.

The "nelwy" elected board and newly hired Vitti did this without a mandate.

I figured Dare would have dolls. I didn't think they would be nazi dolls. He probably preaches to them in German and burns books in his back yard.

Slavery is a topic everyone avoids. The fact he owned and traded slaves is not a reason to change the school name. He freed his slaves before proclamation. Everyone had slaves.  The only difference I see in Forrest and others is that Forrest was not an aristocrat. He earned his money.

I never came here to gain sympathy from any of you. I came to represent a frightened silent majority. I represent people who have been here for generations. I represent local historically aware people that give this town an identity more than another walmart does.

After renaming these people are even more scared now. They are seeing regional heroes come under attack in multiple places and different levels of government. This does not bode well for the future. Its down right scary.

Vitti and the board rushed this decision through without funding. It would seem they are bought and paid for stooges.  That this change was supposed to be wiped away from the passing schools announcement is fairly certain as well.  The proponents for change not even showing up at the community meeting reeks too.

Things are rotten in Jacksonville. The will of the people has been ignored. You guys are all happy about that? What is wrong with you?

Find the sources on the surveys and post them. I know the daily record one was off the chart. 84%?  Vitti did this as a resume builder. Pure and simple.

The only good thing about this is that a whole slew of folks are more aware that NBF was not in the KKK and certainly not the founder. News stations across the land stopped posting that lie. That is something.

[sheclown]

What did you prove through this entire conversation? nothing....nothing righteous....you only showed your intense bigotry.

You may have proved that you started this tirade thinking you had grounds for this renaming but at the end we all know that the FACTS do not back up the action.  You have now LYNCHED a man from history so there is no more sympathy for a black minority.  It is clear that there is now a new minority and it is not black people.

It should be known that a common thought through the Civil Rights Movement was that "Racism" required power to really exist. I would submit that discrediting a General of the Confederacy who held this union together after the Civil war with a complete LIE is "power". We have a Black President and a Black Mayor. Racism is rampant in hiring practices and promotion throughout our entire government as we speak. MERIT is dead. Government is now a trough for the lazy to skate by until they can collect a pension. This in only true however if you are part of the right club.

We are going to become a nation that looks like Detroit.  You support this and are part of it. Somehow our green horn School board is part of it too. Vitti is a full blown idiot and I can not believe we pay him to destroy our culture. (350k right?) I mean look at him....totally inept and now he can claim this lie and run back to the north and brag how he fixed a wrong (that did not exist).  We should buy him a suit made of carpet! I never thought we could do worse than the weirdo guy before Pratt Daniels...now I cry for PD to return! We did not know what we had. It is obviously time to break up the school district. It has never been this clear before. Consolidation does not work for our school district.

I was asked to obey the "rules of civility" a few times on this site while that very person speaking this practiced the lowest of measures to win an argument without facts.  I was surprised because without me there WAS NO INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION on this site.  When I stopped posting this thread died.  You guys are bought and paid for because otherwise you would see that there was no factual reason to do this act. You were hired to make this change seem "okay."  You failed. I can claim that fact.

Every point  I made was ignored and every point was deflected. You begged for source and I gave it to you. We PROVED that Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK and yet that did not matter.

IT STILL DOES NOT MATTER. It only matters than a crazed racist black majority in Memphis needs to be legitimized. I guess Obama and Mayor Brown are there to help. 

Southern white strong regional heroes are on the chopping block. Before long little white girls will be picking out black dolls as a preference (converse to Clark study). Before long people will not be able to imagine white leaders. When does this stop? 

Life will go on but intellectual debate is over. It does not matter. At this point there is no discourse that is intelligent. This is now about power. The truth no longer matters and merit is dead.  You are but a salesmen and no longer a historian worth respect. 

When intellectual discourse is over then what? Think about this....you lynched a dead man who helped you. It took generations of lies and generations of fabrication but it finally has come to pass.

One can only hope that intellectual middle ground will be re-established or I fear for all our futures. I hope and trust that our respect for real history is not over.  It will be a while but I yearn for the next election. This vote will not be forgotten.

http://www.youtube.com/v/bdmcmgIkt6c?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param%20name=

[Tacachale]

Yeah so now I am hearing rumor that the Student surveys were in favor of keeping name. So was the alumni survey and teacher survey.

Don't rely on the rumors when actual facts are readily available.

Before the board voted, Superintendent Nikolai Vitti detailed the results of surveys the district recently collected from various groups, including students, staff, people who live in the school's boundaries, alumni, PTA and the School Advisory Council.

Of the 1,035 students who voted, 64 percent wanted the name change, compared to 36 percent who did not, Vitti said. Alumni had the second largest group of votes: 94 percent of the 339 votes were to keep the Forrest name. Seventy-five percent of the 93 nearby residents voted to keep the name.

Vitti said the surveys showed that most of those who wanted to keep the name indicated they wanted to maintain historic references and community traditions.

Among the 111 faculty votes, 52 percent voted to retain the school's name, Vitti said, but after they learned that the cost to change the name wasn't coming out of the school budget, many changed their minds and favored a name change, Vitti said. The district plans to use its own funds or donated funds to pay for the estimated $400,000 to change the uniforms, signs, marquis and gym floor, he said.

Here's Forrest's PTA and School Advisory Council:

School Advisory Council: 65 percent wanted to change it; 36 percent wanted to keep it

PTA: 75 percent of them wanted to change it; 25 percent wanted to keep it

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-12-16/story/duval-school-board-approves-changing-forrest-highs-name#ixzz2o1ZLJ2lD

In other words,  a strong majority of the 1035 students polled wanted the name changed, as did the parents and School Advisory Council. Polled Alums and unaffiliated neighborhood residents by and large wanted the name kept. Faculty were split. However, the poll was done when everyone thought the change would have to be payed for out of the budget. Instead, it's coming out of the district's general fund so the cost will be spread out across the county (which is fair). Since then, more faculty have been more supportive.

Find the sources on the surveys and post them. I know the daily record one was off the chart. 84%?  Vitti did this as a resume builder. Pure and simple.

This poll is by far the best that has been taken. I can't find them online,  but my understanding is that polls of the city as a whole have always favored changing the name and the numbers have increased over the years.

A majority of students and the School Advisory Council wanted the name changed six years ago, and the School Board shot it down. As Vitti noted, students back in 1958 didn't pick the name to begin with; they were already calling it Valhalla, and others wanted it named Wesconnett, but the school board named it for Forrest.

[Sgarey123]

Of the 1,035 students who voted, 64 percent wanted the name change, compared to 36 percent who did not, Vitti said. Alumni had the second largest group of votes: 94 percent of the 339 votes were to keep the Forrest name. Seventy-five percent of the 93 nearby residents voted to keep the name.

Vitti said the surveys showed that most of those who wanted to keep the name indicated they wanted to maintain historic references and community traditions.

Among the 111 faculty votes, 52 percent voted to retain the school's name, Vitti said, but after they learned that the cost to change the name wasn't coming out of the school budget, many changed their minds and favored a name change, Vitti said. The district plans to use its own funds or donated funds to pay for the estimated $400,000 to change the uniforms, signs, marquis and gym floor, he said.

Well lets just say that "student elections" are always corrupt.  The whole thing is bullsh!t.  Frankly the name has not changed until they get the money.

I think the money should be paid by Vitti and board. They are the only ones that want this outside of a special group in Jacksonville (or maybe the President and Mayor). This group better stop at Forrest.

The greater picture here is what is at stake. The funniest thing is that this "renaming" purpose is to defame slavery when all it is doing is moving us towards it.

[Tacachale]

Of the 1,035 students who voted, 64 percent wanted the name change, compared to 36 percent who did not, Vitti said. Alumni had the second largest group of votes: 94 percent of the 339 votes were to keep the Forrest name. Seventy-five percent of the 93 nearby residents voted to keep the name.

Vitti said the surveys showed that most of those who wanted to keep the name indicated they wanted to maintain historic references and community traditions.

Among the 111 faculty votes, 52 percent voted to retain the school's name, Vitti said, but after they learned that the cost to change the name wasn't coming out of the school budget, many changed their minds and favored a name change, Vitti said. The district plans to use its own funds or donated funds to pay for the estimated $400,000 to change the uniforms, signs, marquis and gym floor, he said.

Well lets just say that "student elections" are always corrupt.  The whole thing is bullsh!t.  Frankly the name has not changed until they get the money.

I think the money should be paid by Vitti and board. They are the only ones that want this outside of a special group in Jacksonville (or maybe the President and Mayor). This group better stop at Forrest.

The greater picture here is what is at stake. The funniest thing is that this "renaming" purpose is to defame slavery when all it is doing is moving us towards it.

LOL, you're the one who asked for the polls, and now they're "corrupt"? It's easy to dismiss facts when they say something you don't want to hear.

[strider]

What's particularly entertaining is that if people like Sgarey123 and members of the Sons of the Confederacy are to be believed, then the Civil War was indeed a second revolutionary war and the Union was nothing but a big bad aggressor bent on forcing their standards on a new and sovereign nation. That of course makes the Confederacy nothing but a conquered nation.  It was and is only the firm belief in free speech, something the Confederacy apparently questioned, that allows anything about this conquered nation even to be talked about. And allows people like Sgarey123 to twist the facts of history into something that support's their particular cause.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was an ex-slave trader and a defeated general from a conquered nation.  It is only by the good graces of the Union conquers that his name can even be mentioned.  Do you believe for one second that if the British had defeated us in the first Revolutionary War that anything would have ever been named after George Washington?

One huge positive that comes from the internet world we live in is the information available at the touch of a button or two from both sides of an argument like this.  The truth can no longer hide in the hand written word, it is out there to be found.  And it is most often not what either side wants to hear.