The Paramount End User of Downtown

[Downtown Dweller]

But once again, I would hope that people pay attention to the point of this post.  Which is how to deconstruct the current situation in which nothing downtown is planned without being either for the benefit of or the exclusion to the homeless.

This is such an interesting question, and I'll be the first to state I have no idea, but wouldn't it be nice if we didn’t even have to ask it? I know every major city has the same issue, several I have visited or lived in have tried the benches and what not, with varying degrees of success (depending on which side of the coin you are on). Many businesses, when designing functionality, design to the lowest common denominator, it appears the leaders are attempting to do the same with downtown, if I build a fountain will someone bathe in it? If someone bathes in it, will someone eating dinner see them and not come back? Why should it be this way? Why should anyone have to be concerned about building a fountain or bathroom and even take into consideration if someone is going to bathe or destroy it? Isn't that illegal anyway? Isn’t that a police issue, not a planning issue? There are services available downtown so when we do take our small children downtown why should we be subjected to urination, defecation, bathing, and panhandling at the park, library or when eating? Why should downtown be designed around this possibility? When did these types of actions become so mainstream that city planning should revolve around either supporting or discouraging them? Perhaps that is the real question, since when did city planning have to take into account a minority of people bathing or relieving themselves in public? I understand the issue of "when nature calls you have to listen", by why accept this public toiletry as so normal and commonplace that now we plan our cities around its occurrence?  Just another twist...

[walter]

Just a few points:

- there is NEVER a valid reason to film someone takeing a crap. I dont care where, when, how. You just dont do that. If it is a public place, you should yell loudly at them to have some dignity and go elsewhere, but by filming them in the act, you become the asshole, no matter what your intentions are. Period.

- as the manager of popular bum hangout London Bridge for 4 years and current owner of a Springfeild pub, I know my Jacksonville bums. This is not rocket science....

HAVE SOME BALLS!

If someone (anyone) is becoming a problem to a customer, and it is usually a repeat offender (you see the same dudes every day. Thats the differance between a bum and a transient. Transients bum a quarter and you never see them again. Bums try to take advantage of people...), simply run them off! The Imperial had an arsenal of baseball bats and chair legs to run off crackheads! Occasionally, at London Bridge, you are going to have to knuckle up a bum! Its a fact... you can do it, then call the cops, and usually they will get arrested afterwords!

I am no fighter or violent dude, but if someone is interfering with your bussiness again and again then direct action may be the only option. I am not saying just go beating up homeless people by any means, but- the way I see it, if they keep violeting me or the place I am running then they are choosing to become my enemy.

Be direct. Look them in the eyes. Wave a big stick oround. Act crazier than they are. Act like you are calling the cops- they will leave if you really want them to! They have to! This is not a huge problem, just simply run the sorry sacks off! And if they are not bothering anyone, then let them be. But once a line is crossed, stand firm... they will go away, trust me.

CLOPS

Man... now I know why I love the Shanty so much!  Ian effing rules!  thats the best advice I've heard yet.  Knuckle up a bum    btw..it almost happend last night, but I think he saw the writing on the wall.

[David]

*disclaimer* overly simplified idealistic statement coming up:

The problem with the homeless and downtown is the ratio of homeless to regulars. If we can't reduce the homeless population, we just need to get more people downtown for more events (more permanent residents would be nice too course) but if you had more people, you can just ignore a bum and let them bother some other poor sap. It works well when I'm visiting nyc!

So for every event you go downtown, bring 5 friends! We just need to outnumber them, yeah thats the ticket!

[David]

always good advice, tony.

But what about the daytime hours when there arent necessarily events? 

Since I work downtown,  during the day  is when I have the least amount of run ins with the homeless, transients, etc due to all the pedestrian traffic on the streets. There's just more people for them to bother so less come to me.  Either way i'm being light hearted about a serious situation, because I honestly dont know what to do about it personally. But I'm pretty stingy with the downtowners, I save my change for the riverside bums!

[triclops i]

You have to be tough with this stuff.

And btw Walt, 9 times out of 10 no knuckle up happens.... they do see the writing on the wall, and they get lost first. We are talking about lazy people, not stupid people!

I

[jaxhater]

First off this is LEE HARVEY,or JAXHATER- whatever
Wow, Knuckle up, guys.
First off let me say when you sale poison to young people for a living maybe scaring away and crushing homeless peoples skulls with baseball bats is is just another wonderful day in the ghetto.
So lets say when and not if the ecomomy gets worse your friends and clients who are about 2 paychecks away from being on the streets may not keep up with their tab and because they may be homeless and all ask you for a free beer would you then have to kick their ass, crush their skull with a bat or call your friends, the cops, to do your dirty work.
Sounds like someone Hitler or Bush-Cheney would be proud of.
Soon Springfield and downtown will be your worse nightmare.
How do I know this, because I was here before you were born.
Get ready kids, the shit is about to hit the fan.
But you should know all this you being a business men and all.
BTW Springfield ain't about bats.....We gots GATTS and theys automatic's.

[heights unknown]

Heights:

Good points, all.  As for the Universal Law (goes around/come around), I don't think anyone is advocating doing anything BAD to the homeless, unless they're violent beggars, of course.  [[side note--I worked for 20 years in downtown DC, and I've seen my share of bums, homeless, etc.]]  And I think most of us wish there was something GOOD to do for them, but.......nobody has ever, ever, ever had a viable solution to solving the current problem (nationwide) and preventing the constant reocurrance.  So, society helps when it can, but there is no solving the problem.  I wish there were.  And like I said to "gatorback", don't give me pie-in-the-sky, what-if solutions, like "if everyone gave 5 dollars....." or something like that.  Those are stop-gap measures, handouts.   What is the solution to eliminate the root of the problem forever---and a solution that can actually be implemented. Implemented is the key word here.

Stephendare:

Uhh....I explain the plight of the confederates after the war thusly:  They were defeated in war, period.   To the victor goes the spoils, the losers get nothing.  And these losers were in rebellion against their country....so they're lucky they didn't ALL swing from the gallows, quite frankly.   And, the South was poor to begin with, compared to the industrialized North, and war is expensive!  Sucession was a dumb idea from a strategic standpoint...they didn't stand a chance.  Few factories, no weapons manufacturing, no trains, less people.....a really dumb way to start a war.    As for the shantytowns....if you're living in a shantytown, you're not homeless.  You're just dirt-poor. There IS a difference. 

As for history and sanitized lenses.....you're absolutely right.   I often ask people (who are complaining about present day problems) what they consider to be "the good old days".  First it's the 60s, but I point out race riots.  Then it's the 50's, and I point out no cure for polio and everyone smoked (or whatever), and the the 40's (world war!), then it's the 20s (prohibition, gangsters, facism), then it's the 1890s, then it's....cave man days!  My point is that there were never "good old days", and the golden glow of bygone years is only because people do indeed look at history through rose colored (and sanitized) glasses. 

For just one moment, I want everyone to consider that THESE are the good old days.  Right now.  Times are good...much better than when the Black Plague was having a go at all of Europe.....

So, I'll step out of this dialogue.  Again, a very good discussion by all, and I hope someone solves the homeless problem.  But in 10, 20, 30 years, downtown Jax will still have the same problem.  I'm sure of it. 

In all due respect we're treating them BAD when we do nothing for them, knowing deep in our heart(s) that they are most likely yearning for a way out and begging for a way out, and then have the nerve to complain that they are breathing.

Let me educate you guys on one factual and most important point of being homeless, and if anyone in this forum, in the future, ever becomes homeless, and I hope to God you won't, this you will never, ever forget when you become homeless: 

When you get deep into homelessness, it becomes a never ending, vicious circle of the same thing and same old same old day in and day out, and.......it is extremely hard to bounce back to normalcy once you are in.  No one wants to hire you or even come near you when you're smelly, no one wants anything to do with you if you have no home, phone or transportation, and I could go on and on; remember, once you're in that vicious circle, it is hell trying to get out!

Heights Unknown

[jaxhater]

Amen on that, brother.
I love it when suburbia comes downtown to set us straight.
YEAH!!!!!!!!
When I was homeless for many years during the 70's, I would wish someone would say the wrong thing to me because I was armed and dangerous.
Shit, I saw jail as a upscale hotel.
They have no idea.
Karma is M.F
You have no balls if you beat down the least of us.
And bars are just creating the next wave of "drunk homeless-lazy person" (not my words).
Get a grip!
I promise in two years if you have a business in the downtown- springfield area, you're gonna have to get bullet-proof real fast.
Homeless will be the least of your problems.
YEAH!!!!!

[obie1]

Trace says:
But in those ancient times that I mentioned, there were no organized hand-outs.  People died, or survived as the village idiot, as beggars, as thieves, etc.  Same as now. Darwin is at work here, not organized religion or disorganized government.  Darwin always wins. 

Now see kids, this post is an example of why you shouldn't try to read Dawkins on the bus home from the Ren Fair when you're sleepy from the day's events.

Trace, I expect an asstoot grad would research how social parameters modify behavior. If biology is destiny well...Hell, even environment modulates which genes become active and which don't.  Shame on all the  "I gots mine" Libertarians posting tripe in this thread. Read Heights Unknown's brave posts which elevate the conversation.

[triclops i]

Should I entertain this dude? Why not, I got some free time...

First off, we aint selling nothing but a good time over my way. Poison CAN be alcohol, or politics, or religion, or bad art, or anything else.... but what definetely, factually is poison is crack, cocaine, herion, oxycotin, ect.

What do you think the ratio of homeless drug addicts wondering around Downtown is to homeless completely crazy folks? I would non-scientifically guess there are at the very least twice as many lazy, panhandleing drug addicts around here then there are schitzos or otherwise "not able to care for themselves" type homeless. And that is a low estimate. I have very little sympathy for a crackhead, especially when they are interfereing with my bussiness and making my customers uncomfortable. And when you are panhandleing to a nice couple trying to enjoy their dinner so you can buy a rock or a cheap quart, you are choosing to make the general population uncomfortable. If you are physically able to wash dishes and dig ditches, then I aint got nothing for you.... I work hard as hell, and I feel like if every other able bodied soul would also then everyone in the community as a whole would be better off.

Hey, I by no means advocate just randomly bashing anyones skull for any reason. If you are sitting in a public park for 8 hours a day drinking and are being slick about hiding your bottle, and you are not bothering a soul, and you think thats a good use of your limited time on earth, then I have no qualms with you. Do your thing. You do have a legal right to be sorry.

Again, from my expirence, you get the same tired ass lazy dudes who are probably addicted to some illict substance constantly bothering the general public. It is an inconvience at worse, but it sucks, and as a manager of any establishment or bussiness it is part of your job to push them out. And if you are a habitual offender then it becomes harder and harder to convince me you actually need my help.

You wanna bum change? Dont do it at Shanty, that young dude will yell at you and call the police. And if that dont work, he may chase you off with a stick. Spread the word. The bums will realize this and stop coming around.

And if and when the economy collapses, 2 things will continue to sell- cheap food and cheap drinks. And I am gonna continue to provide this to the citizens in downtown Jacksonville, probably for the rest of my life. And I will be damned if I am gonna let any crackhead interfere with me doing it. Its my job.

Springfeild /Downtown is not getting worse. And its not gonna. And running these dudes off is a step to making it better. And in two years it is gonna be safer, more comfortable, cleaner, and less crackheads wondering around. And again I know because it is currently part of my job.

As far as all the gun talk- never owned or operated or carryed one myself. Pull one on me and I will likely just give you what you want and then run.... but worrying about bad things that may happen IS the least of my problems.
If someone robbed me at gunpoint for a days cash A. it is probably not gonna be a homeless person and B. I will just keep it moving to the next day. I aint worried about evil folks because karma is a bitch!

Ian Ranne

[triclops i]

Agreed.

[jaxhater]

Ian

I'm not picking on you, I say the same thing to Ryan about his bar.
Have given him shit for 6 years about bars.
Don't like bars, booze or smokes and I know what I'm talking about.
I feel booze leads to crack, and you brought up crackheads being part of the problem
I've seen it a thousand times, drinking then drugs.
If You had opened anything but a bar, I'd be there.
As a business man, I respect you.
I have no doubt you will be around reguardless of the economy
But don't fool yourself about the economy.
Springfield is a house of cards.
Worse than I have ever seen.
I set foot the first time in springfield in 1972.
It had just recovered from the M.L.K. riots.
Property meant nothing then.
You could rent a 4 bedroom house for $150.00 dollars.
When Steven and I opened the space on main street, 2003.
The houses could still be had for $50.K
Since then people have paid 10 times that.
real estate has been dropping 5% a month since July.
You, Steven, me, Craig Van Horn and Jesus Christ can't make those numbers work.
It is bad!!!!!
When the winds blow that house of cards down, we may all be smoking crack in the ally, bumming money, drinking beer at your place and be so homeless.
Until then Busting peoples chops because their hooked on crack, homeless, in your face or being a drunken bum is bad karma.
Steven, I disagree that the homeless are a problem downtown.
That rotten to the core Prison-church is a much larger drain on our city and and a much larger problem.
Help the homeless,House them downtown, feed them down, cloth them downtown,rehab them downtown.
If it has to happen in the middle of city hall, I'm all for it,
Fix the freaking problem, We need to quit sweeping everything under the bridge.
Homelessness is going to be the most pressing problem in the next few years.
During the depression they didn't send the homeless to family farms.
They would have been shot.
They took care of them downtown.
I just had an idea, Jaguars are losers, get rid of them.
Use the money that we waste on the team and a put a roof on the stadium.
Killer homeless shelter
Families in the box seats.

[Jerry Moran]

He grabs a lead pipe from behind the bar and starts yelling

Don't use any weapon other than foam pepper spray or a pistol, depending on the situation.  You otherwise risk injury to yourself.  Of course, use the pistol only if it is necessary to kill.

Foam pepper spray can be used indoors, and will not clear the place out like mist.  I have used it many times at tableside on criminal vagrants whom I've caught begging at my bar, and would not desist when instructed.  It is a wonderful tool.  Google Fox brand foam with the flip top, or Mace brand Pepper Gel.

[Coolyfett]

Just a few points:

- there is NEVER a valid reason to film someone takeing a crap. I dont care where, when, how. You just dont do that. If it is a public place, you should yell loudly at them to have some dignity and go elsewhere, but by filming them in the act, you become the asshole, no matter what your intentions are. Period.

- as the manager of popular bum hangout London Bridge for 4 years and current owner of a Springfeild pub, I know my Jacksonville bums. This is not rocket science....

HAVE SOME BALLS!

If someone (anyone) is becoming a problem to a customer, and it is usually a repeat offender (you see the same dudes every day. Thats the differance between a bum and a transient. Transients bum a quarter and you never see them again. Bums try to take advantage of people...), simply run them off! The Imperial had an arsenal of baseball bats and chair legs to run off crackheads! Occasionally, at London Bridge, you are going to have to knuckle up a bum! Its a fact... you can do it, then call the cops, and usually they will get arrested afterwords!

I am no fighter or violent dude, but if someone is interfering with your bussiness again and again then direct action may be the only option. I am not saying just go beating up homeless people by any means, but- the way I see it, if they keep violeting me or the place I am running then they are choosing to become my enemy.

Be direct. Look them in the eyes. Wave a big stick oround. Act crazier than they are. Act like you are calling the cops- they will leave if you really want them to! They have to! This is not a huge problem, just simply run the sorry sacks off! And if they are not bothering anyone, then let them be. But once a line is crossed, stand firm... they will go away, trust me.

CLOPS

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!! Clops!! What up son!!!

This is kinda the same thing I was saying earlier. If they bother you deal with em. If they are just sitting around playing chest and talking to each other why run them off?? Because they are dirty? That's no reason to find a PLACE FOR THE HOMELESS to go. I mean the homeless never bothered me. If I was annoyed prior to their approach they got ignored or dissed. If I was in a good mood, Id let em clean the rims on the honda for a few bux and keep it moving. If the homeless control what you do you really got issues. Like Triclops says if you let the homeless stop you from GETTING MONEY then anyone can stop you from it!! Let em be.

[Coolyfett]

Stephendare, Heights, other:

And is the homeless problem really a "problem"?  I know this sounds crazy, but only a small fraction of the population (and I know it's still a LOT of people) are homeless.  And yes, it can happen to anyone, I suppose, but the comment "How many consecutive mistakes do you have to make to become (a typical) homeless." is a good one.   There are a lot of mistakes being made out there, but only a scant fraction of the mistake makers are sleeping on the benches.  I mean, unless you're dealt a really bad hand in life, there's an entrenched  reason that you're out of a home.  And for those very, very few who are normally a part of society and get dealt that nasty hand that puts them on the street usually manage to crawl back to the real world, if I'm not terribly mistaken. 

I guess it is a problem because everyone complains about the homeless to the Police, Sheriff, and City Government, telling them to do something with those worthless, smelly, no good people; so I guess yes, it is a problem.  It doesn't matter whether it is only a small fraction of the population, society yearns for perfection (which we'll never have in this life), and part of that perfection is getting rid of eye sores, and that is how many people feel about the homeless.

WHAT!?!?!? dude please speak for yourself. Who calls the police on the homeless? That's like calling the police on a raccoon or a stray cat. People are getting killed out here by thugs WITH homes and you calling JSO on the homeless?? Wow.......people are not your clones man. You can suggest a feeling, but to say everyone thinks what YOU think is bullshit.