Discussion, ALL HISTORY BUFF'S... Who are your favorite military leaders and why

[jaxnative]

One of my all time favorite battles (aside from the Battle of Mollwitz)  is the crushing defeat handed to Peter the Great of Russia in the Great Northern Wars.

Brings to mind the disasterous 20th century adventure of the Russkie invasion of Finland at the beginning of WW2.  The Russians attacked with overwhelming forces but were stopped cold for four months in what has become know as The Winter War.  The Finns tactics were based on terrain and the unbelievable fighing prowess of their forces.  They found ingenious ways to stop the Russian tanks and created the "molotov cocktail" during this conflict.

One of the most disasterous defeats of the Russians occurred at the Battle of Raate-Road.  Two divisions of Soviet infantry(about 25,000 men), supported by tanks were ambushed along a section of road.  Taking advantage of the narrow confines, the Finns blocked the advance and retreat options with small forces and wreaked havoc on the Russkies.  The Russians had 18,000 casulties, lost 85 tanks and tons of equipment.  The Finns lost about 250 men out of a force of 3600.

Unfortunately, the numerical superiority of the Russian forces and the lack of equipment, ammunition, and resupply of materiel to the Finnish forces forced the signing of a treaty with the Soviets to their advantage.

[Ocklawaha]

The Finns proved one thing... Tiger Tanks are worthless in 12 feet of snow (JUST KIDDING). Another lesson learned was Never trust a German with a funny little moustache to send you equipment and troops.

Any of you ever think in the abstract? What if?

Imagine the Finn's with Tigers, Leopards and King Tigers on the ground and Stukas and ME109's in the air... Hum...
What if the Confederates had owned a fleet of submarines? What if Stonewall was never shot? What if J.E.B. Stuart had gotten word to Robert E. Lee before Gettysburg?



OCKLAWAHA

[macbeth25]

I'm not sure who, but someone mentioned Cincinnatus.  Here's a website about him: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Cincinatus.  I wonder if anyone knows about the Order of Cincinnatus.  One story I remember -- which may not be true -- was that after the Revolution, some military officers proposed that a dictatorship be established with Washington as king or something along that line.  The story has Washington showing up at the meeting and describing how Cincinnatus had left his farm to run the army when he was needed and then went back to his farm when it was over.  After hearing his story the military officers stopped their plans and that's why we have a free country with an elected president instead of a king.  Do I have it right?

[JagFan07]

Admiral Horatio Nelson "The hero of Trafalgar".

In the battle of Trafalgar he easily could have watched the battle from another ship, but instead chose to lead the battle form the HMS Victory. A decision that ended up costing him his life.

[JaxNative68]

Any of you ever think in the abstract? What if? 

OCKLAWAHA

what if my aunt had balls . . . she'd be my uncle

[Ocklawaha]

By Job, me thinks we have a winner!

Good form JaxNative, good form! Remember too, If June bugs had landing lights, they could steer clear of my teeth on my bike at night... Ummm

OCKLAWAHA

[macbeth25]

Admiral Horatio Nelson "The hero of Trafalgar".

In the battle of Trafalgar he easily could have watched the battle from another ship, but instead chose to lead the battle form the HMS Victory. A decision that ended up costing him his life.

An admiral is a "flag" officer, which means he has a flag denoting his rank.  As  fleet commander, the ship which carries his flag would be called a "flagship."  Strangely enough, a fleet admiral does not normally command his own ship -- the ship has a captain who is primarily responsible for that vessel and acts under the admiral's orders the same as the commander of any other ship in the fleet.  Was HMS Victory his flagship or did he choose to move to it from another vessel?  I'm not familiar with the real Nelson, having only read about him in C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower series of books.  I know he was a real person and really was a hero but I'm not familiar with him. 

[macbeth25]

Here's the answer to my question:  http://www.sculptor-iangb.com/hms-victory.htm.  The Victory was the Admiral's flagship which means he probably would have led the battle from there -- though he could have chosen to move his flag to another ship.  The original statement made it appear that Nelson chose to move to HMS Victory from another ship -- I have no idea, perhaps he did.   

[Dog Walker]

It was called a flagship because it was the command ship from which an admiral transmitted command signals by flags, a system developed by the British navy.  Nelson, as the Admiral, had to be on the flagship to command the battle.  He wasn't there to watch it.  The flagship was usually in the thick of the battle and was usually one of the largest ships in the fleet.

HMS Victory is still in commission in the British navy, although not floating, in Portsmouth, England.  It is well worth the trip to see it.  There is a brass plaque on the deck where Nelson was shot and another below where he died.

[JagFan07]

From Wikipedia:

"As the fleets converged, the Victory’s captain, Thomas Hardy suggested that Nelson remove the decorations on his coat, so that he would not be so easily identified by enemy sharpshooters. Nelson replied that it was too late 'to be shifting a coat', adding that they were 'military orders and he did not fear to show them to the enemy'. Captain Henry Blackwood, of the frigate HMS Euryalus, suggested Nelson come aboard his ship to better observe the battle. Nelson refused, and also turned down Hardy's suggestion to let Eliab Harvey's HMS Temeraire come ahead of the Victory and lead the line into battle."

That is what I meant by chose to lead the battle. I think Nelson knew what he was heading into and chose to be brave in the face of danger.

[macbeth25]

That's a good post, JagFan07.  While it is correct that orders were transmitted by flags, another reason for the name was the flagship carried the admiral's flag and was the ship from which the admiral exercised his command.  See my previous comment and references regarding "flagships."  If anyone's interested, here are a couple of other references to Admiral Lord Nelson http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/horatio_nelson.htm and to the HMS Victory: http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/victory.htm.  The first of the references in this post contains the flags which transmitted a famous quote attributed to Admiral Nelson "England expects every man to do his duty."
When I was reading the reference above regarding Nelson, I came across the following: “It is a common misconception that Nelsons last words were ‘kiss me Hardy’ or ‘kismet Hardy,’ said to captain of HMS Victory, Thomas Hardy. His actual last words are believed to be:
"Kiss me, Hardy. Now I am satisfied. Thank God I have done my duty. Drink, drink. Fan, fan. Rub, rub." The final words were in reference to his thirst, heat and chest pains.
Looking at that quote, I kind of doubt he was asking the ship’s captain to “kiss” him which makes Nelson sound like a homosexual, something I’m sure he was not.  I think what he said was “Kismet, Hardy” meaning that getting shot and killed was his fate or destiny.

[Ocklawaha]

This may help clear the water here... Nelson could well have had HIS FLAG (a command flag usually with stars for each star on the commanders shoulder boards) on an inferior ship. Somehow history has linked FLAGSHIP with the heavy weights of the battle and that is simply not true. In fact today it would hardly ever be true. In Nelsons time there was much more leadership by the hands on method, but the American War of Yankee Aggression put an end to that worldwide. Stonewall Jackson: Killed, J.E.B. Stuart: Killed, Clebourne: Killed, etc...
bad idea in modern warfare. I'm sharing the Japanese Order of Battle at Midway in 1942. Note that the Admrials were in the front line vessels, Yamamoto was 200 miles to the rear in Yamato, the worlds biggest battleship. But Nagumo, was front and center with the strike force on the carrier Akagi. When the carrier sank, Nagumo shifted his flag to the Destroyer Nagara. This simple act set a precendence for almost all future commanders.

About Midway, had the invasion force under the very able hands of  (battle ship sailor and early convert to total air war), admrial Ugaki, gone ahead with the invasion Japan may well have taken the island anyway. Had the reserve "jeep" carriers been sent in, they might have struck back. Had the diversionary force with the carriers Ryujo and Junyo been in the main attack force, history would read differently... Interesting what if's.

Japanese Order of Battle at Midway
Ship "Classes" in parenthesis.
COMBINED FLEET
Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto, in Yamato
Chief of Staff, RADM Matome Ugaki

Main Body, Admiral Yamamoto
BatDiv 1, Admiral Yamamoto
BB Yamato (flagship, Yamato), Captain
BB Nagato (Nagato), Captain Hideo Yano
BB Mutsu (Nagato), Captain Teijiro Yamazumi
Carrier Group, Captain Kaoru Umetani
CVL Hosho (Hosho), Captain Umetani
Air Unit (8 bombers), Lieutenant Yoshiaki Irikiin
DD Yukaze (Minekaze), Lieutenant Commander Shizuka Kajimoto
Special Force, Captain Kaku Harada
Chiyoda (seaplane carrier, Chitose), Captain Harada
Nisshin (seaplane carrier, Nisshin), Captain Katsumi Komazawa
Screen (DesRon 3), RADM Shintaro Hashimoto
CL Sendai (flagship, Jintsu), Captain Nobue Morishita
DesDiv 11, Captain Kiichiro Shoji
DD Fubuki (Fubuki), Captain Shizuo Yamashita
DD Shirayuki (Fubuki), Captain Taro Sugahara
DD Hatsuyuki (Fubuki), Captain Lieutenant Commander Junnari Kamiura
DD Murakumo (Fubuki), Captain Commander Hideo Higashi
DesDiv 19, Captain Ranji Oe
DD Isonami (Fubuki), Commander Ryokichi Sugama
DD Uranami (Fubuki), Commander Tsutomu Hagio
DD Shikinami (Fubuki), Commander Akifumi Kawahashi
DD Ayanami (Fubuki), Commander Eiji Sakuma
1st Supply Unit, Captain Shigeyasu Nishioka
Naruto (Oiler), Captain Nishioka
Toei Maru (Oiler)

GUARD (Aleutians Screening) FORCE, VADM Shiro Takasu in Hyuga
Chief of Staff, Rear Admiral Kengo Kobayashi
BatDiv 2
BB Hyuga (flagship, Hyuga), Captain Chiaki Matsuda
BB Ise (Hyuga), Captain Isamu Takeda
BB Fuso (Fuso), Captain Mitsuo Kinoshita
BB Yamashiro (Fuso), Captain Gunji Kogure
Screen, RADM Fukuji Kishi
CruDiv 9, Rear Admiral Kishi
CL Kitakami ( flagship, Kuma), Captain Saiji Norimitsu
CL Oi (Kuma), Captain Shigeru Narita
DesDiv 20, Captain Yuji Yamada
DD Asagiri (Fubuki), Commander Nisaburo Maekawa
DD Yugiri (Fubuki), Captain Masayoshi Motokura
DD Shirakumo (Fubuki), Commander Toyoji Hitomi
DD Amagiri (Fubuki), Captain Buichi Ashida
DesDiv 24, Captain Yasuji Hirai
DD Umikaze (Shiratsuyu), Commander Nagahide Sugitani
DD Yamakaze (Shiratsuyu), Commander Shuichi Hamanaka
DD Kawakaze (Shiratsuyu), Commander Kazuo Wakabayashi
DD Suzukaze (Shiratsuyu), Commander Kazuo Shibayama
DesDiv 27, Captain Matake Yoshimura
DD Ariake (Hatsuharu), Commander Shoichi Yoshida
DD Yugure (Hatsuharu), Commander Kiyoshi Kamo
DD Shigure (Shiratsuyu), Commander Noboru Seo
DD Shiratsuyu (Shiratsuyu), Lieutenant Commander Kimmatsu Hashimoto
2nd Supply Unit, Captain Matsuo Eguchi
San Clemente Maru (oiler), Captain Eguchi
Toa Maru (oiler)

FIRST CARRIER STRIKING FORCE (1st Air Fleet), VADM Chuichi Nagumo
Carrier Group, VADM Nagumo
CarDiv 1
CV Akagi  (flagship, Akagi) 21 Zero fighters, 21 dive bombers, 21 torpedo bombers (Sunk)
CV Kaga (Kaga) 21 Zero fighters, 21 dive bombers, 30 torpedo bombers (Sunk)
CarDiv 2 -- RADM Tamon Yamaguchi
CV Hiryu (flagship, Hiryu) 21 Zero fighters, 21 dive bombers, 21 torpedo bombers (Sunk)
CV Soryu (Hiryu) 21 Zero fighters, 21 dive bombers, 21 torpedo bombers (Sunk)
Support Group -- RADM Hiroaki Abe CruDiv 8
CA Tone (flagship, Tone)
CA Chikuma (Tone)
2nd Section, BatDiv 3 --
BB Haruna (Kongo)
BB Kirishima (Kongo)
Screen (DesRon 10) -- RADM Susumu Kimura
CL Nagara (flagship, Nagara)
DesDiv 4 -- 4 DDs
DesDiv 10 -- 3 DDs
DesDiv 17 -- 4 DDs
Supply Group -- 5 oilers, 1 DD

MIDWAY INVASION FORCE, (2nd Fleet), VADM Nobutake Kondo
Invasion Force Main Body
CruDiv 4 (less 2nd section)
CA Atago (flagship, Takao),
CA Chokai (Takao)
CruDiv 5 (less 2nd section)
CA Myoko (Myoko)
CA Haguro (Myoko)
BatDiv 3 (less 2nd section) --
BB Kongo (Kongo)
BB Hiei (Kongo)
Screen (DesRon 4) -- RADM Shoji Nishimura
CL Yura (flagship, Nagara)
DesDiv 2 -- 4 DDs
DesDiv 9 -- 3 DDs
Carrier Group Zuiho (CVL) -- 12 Zero fighters, 12 torpedo bombers; 1 DD
Supply Group -- 4 oilers, 1 repair ship
Close Support Group -- VADM Takeo Kurita
CruDiv 7
CA Kumano (flagship, Mogami)
CA Suzuya (Mogami)
CA Mikuma (Mogami) (Sunk)
CA Mogami (Mogami)
DesDiv 8 -- 2 DDs 1 oiler
Transport Group -- RADM Raizo Tanaka
12 transports carrying troops
3 patrol boats carrying troops
1 oiler
Escort (DesRon 2) -- RADM Tanaka
CL Jintsu (flagship, Jintsu)
DesDiv 15 -- 2 DDs
DesDiv 16 -- 4 DDs
DesDiv 18 -- 4 DDs
Seaplane Tender Group -- RADM Riutaro Fujita
Seaplane Tender Div 11
Chitose (CVS) -- 16 fighter seaplanes, 4 scout planes
Kamikawa Maru (AV) -- 8 fighter seaplanes, 4 scout planes
1 DD;
1 patrol boat carrying troops
Minesweeper Group
4 minesweepers
3 submarine chasers
1 supply ship
2 cargo ships

NORTHERN (Aleutians) FORCE (5th Fleet) -- VADM Moshiro Hosogaya
Northern Force Main Body
CA Nachi (flagship, Myoko)
Screen --
2 DDs
Supply Group --
2 oilers, 3 cargo ships
Second Carrier Striking Force -- RADM Kakuji Kakuta
Carrier Group (CarDiv 4)
CVL Ryujo (flagship, Ryujo) -- 16 Zero fighters, 21 torpedo bombers
CV Junyo (Junyo) -- 24 Zero fighters, 21 torpedo bombers
Support Group (2nd section, CruDiv 4) --
CA Maya (Takao)
CA Takao (Takao)
Screen (DesDiv 7) --
3 DDs
1 oiler
Attu Invasion Force -- RADM Sentaro Omori
CL Abukuma (flagship, Nagara)
DesDiv 21 --
4 DDs
1 minelayer
1 transport carrying troops
Kiska Invasion Force -- Capt. Takeji Ono
CruDiv 21 --
CL Kiso ()
CL Tama ()
AMC Asaka Maru (auxiliary cruiser)
Screen (DesDiv 6) --
3 DDs
2 transports carrying troops
Minesweeper Div. 13 --
3 minesweepers
Submarine Detachment -- RADM Shigeaki Yamazaki
SubRon 1 -- I-9 (flagship)
SubDiv 2 -- 3 submarines
SubDiv 4 -- 2 submarines

ADVANCE (Submarine) FORCE (6th Fleet) -- VADM Teruhisa Komatsu
CL Katori (flagship, Katori) at Kwajalein
SubRon 3 -- RADM Chimaki Kono
Rio de Janeiro Maru (submarine tender, flagship) at Kwajalein
SubDiv 19 -- 4 submarines
SubDiv 30 -- 3 submarines
SubDiv 13 -- 3 submarines

SHORE BASED AIR PATROL (11th Air Fleet) -- VADM Nishizo Tsukahara
Midway Expeditionary Force -- Capt. Chisato Morita 36 Zero fighters (aboard Nagumo's carriers) 10 land-based bombers at Wake; 6 flying boats at Jaluit
24th Air Flotilla -- RADM Minoru Maeda at Kwajalein
Chitose Air Group -- 36 Zero fighters, 36 torpedo bombers at Kwajalein
1st Air Group -- 36 Zero fighters, 36 torpedo bombers at Aur and Wotje
14th Air Group -- 18 flying boats at Jaluit and Wotje

OCKLAWAHA

[macbeth25]

I just don't understand this.  What is wrong with calling the ship from which Nelson commanded the battle his flagship?  Did you even check the references?  The term flagship has nothing to do with its size -- it could be a pt boat if the admiral commanding chose to base his command there.   

[Ocklawaha]

Good Point macbeth25, If you'll notice in my illustration, Nagumo the commander of the Carrier Strike Force could have put his flag on any ship of the fleet, but he put it on a destroyer which in most navies is one of the smaller fighting vessels. So your right, he COULD HAVE put it on a PT boat if he wanted to...

Hum? Did the IJN have PT Boats? They did have anti-submarine helicopters (which we knew NOTHING about) and pulled off a sinking of one of our subs. The story is garbled as nobody knew how to report this "Thing" that sunk the submarine. TRUTH!

OCKLAWAHA

[macbeth25]

They probably didn't call them "pt boats," but I'll bet they had and still do have vessels of similar size and function.  BTW, I'm sure you know the story of PT-109.  Here's a bit more about pt boats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat.