LIVE BLOG: MOBILITY FEE MORATORIUM: Rules&Finance Committee

[thelakelander]

So much for the threat about 7-Eleven not expanding if we don't implement a moratorium....

7-Eleven is going to put a convenience store at Riverside Avenue and Barrs Street, across from St. Vincent's Medical Center. It will be in the corner space in the Prado Walk shopping center, last occupied by the International Grill.

A spokeswoman said opening is expected in mid-May.

The $427,000 permit for the 3,137-square-foot buildout was issued Tuesday. F&G Construction has the contract.

LabCorp is the only other tenant in Prado Walk.

Since it returned to the Jacksonville area last year after a 22-year hiatus, the world's largest convenience store chain has opened nine stores in Duval County, two in Clay County and one in St. Johns County. Several more are in the pipeline, the spokeswoman said, but she can't release exact locations yet.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/472000/roger-bull/2013-03-13/7-eleven-open-riverside-avenue

[Bridges]

So much for the threat about 7-Eleven not expanding if we don't implement a moratorium....

7-Eleven is going to put a convenience store at Riverside Avenue and Barrs Street, across from St. Vincent's Medical Center. It will be in the corner space in the Prado Walk shopping center, last occupied by the International Grill.

A spokeswoman said opening is expected in mid-May.

The $427,000 permit for the 3,137-square-foot buildout was issued Tuesday. F&G Construction has the contract.

LabCorp is the only other tenant in Prado Walk.

Since it returned to the Jacksonville area last year after a 22-year hiatus, the world's largest convenience store chain has opened nine stores in Duval County, two in Clay County and one in St. Johns County. Several more are in the pipeline, the spokeswoman said, but she can't release exact locations yet.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/472000/roger-bull/2013-03-13/7-eleven-open-riverside-avenue

You just knew that was a crock when he had the "letter".  You could hear the groans in the council chamber when he mentioned it.  I'm sure Curtis Hart could get a letter from anyone tied to a developer in town.

I kept thinking about Big Lebowski, "You want a toe?  I can get you a toe, believe me.  I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock"

[dougskiles]

So much for the threat about 7-Eleven not expanding if we don't implement a moratorium....

7-Eleven is going to put a convenience store at Riverside Avenue and Barrs Street, across from St. Vincent's Medical Center. It will be in the corner space in the Prado Walk shopping center, last occupied by the International Grill.

A spokeswoman said opening is expected in mid-May.

The $427,000 permit for the 3,137-square-foot buildout was issued Tuesday. F&G Construction has the contract.

LabCorp is the only other tenant in Prado Walk.

Since it returned to the Jacksonville area last year after a 22-year hiatus, the world's largest convenience store chain has opened nine stores in Duval County, two in Clay County and one in St. Johns County. Several more are in the pipeline, the spokeswoman said, but she can't release exact locations yet.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/472000/roger-bull/2013-03-13/7-eleven-open-riverside-avenue

You can find a list of the stores here:

http://franchise.7-eleven.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/7-Eleven_Store-List_March_FLORIDA.pdf

I don't have time to chase these down, but it would be interesting to call the local building departments and find out how many of these new stores in the past 12 months paid an impact fee.

[JeffreyS]

I saw the guys hanging sheet rock in there and it looked like some painters in there as well today. Oh thank heaven.

[simms3]

Despite what these landowners are afraid of, potentially, it's not as if infill will "detract" from sprawl in a material way.  In most Sunbelt cities with lots of available raw land, lower incomes, lower COL, ease of development, population growth, etc, infill will only be about 10-20% of all new residential development (these are the numbers for like Charlotte...in Jax it will be like 1-3% of all new development).  It's not like Charlotte is not expanding outward, still, despite all of the new stuff always being built near the core.  Charlotte also has a much more robust CBD with more and higher paying jobs and a much younger, more educated culture, so developers can actually better justify building more expensive infill (close to job center, i.e. Uptown, and larger highly paid base in the under 30 set).

In Jacksonville, we can push infill, but the jobs have to come, too.  Infill won't happen without the jobs, the demand, etc.  In a town like Jax, there will *always* be demand for cheap tract housing and apartments in the burbs (and then your strip retail) simply due to the population growth and the attraction of lower middle/middle class families.

Here in SF the legislative controversy is almost always regarding height limits and density regulations.  It's the densest city in America outside of NYC so every parcel is intensely developed already.  In fact, there is a bill to be voted on soon through the Planning Commission to raise height limits along the Embarcadero waterfront to around 120 ft, which will allow one developer to start its project which will block my view.  Very heated here, so no matter where you go there will be areas of contention involving development.  In Jax they want to protect raw land values on the fringes.  In SF they want to increase height limits so they can justify their half acre parcel purchases and build even higher (bc land prices here are so insane).

[dougskiles]

^I haven't been following things as much as I should lately... did you move to SF?

[thelakelander]

In Jacksonville, we can push infill, but the jobs have to come, too.  Infill won't happen without the jobs, the demand, etc.

I don't know what the recent numbers are but there's been a big push to increase jobs in downtown over the last year or two.  Most of us know about the Everbank deal but there have been several smaller companies relocating to the CBD as well. The most recent announcement came this week from RockTenn. It's not 2,500 but 70 here and there adds up, as long as you keep the existing jobs from leaving.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,17752.0.html

[simms3]

^I haven't been following things as much as I should lately... did you move to SF?

Yes

In Jacksonville, we can push infill, but the jobs have to come, too.  Infill won't happen without the jobs, the demand, etc.

I don't know what the recent numbers are but there's been a big push to increase jobs in downtown over the last year or two.  Most of us know about the Everbank deal but there have been several smaller companies relocating to the CBD as well. The most recent announcement came this week from RockTenn. It's not 2,500 but 70 here and there adds up, as long as you keep the existing jobs from leaving.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,17752.0.html

An overall thriving Jacksonville economy can bring jobs, especially high paying jobs, to downtown.  Even if the city builds up an industry, brings some more relos to the SS that aren't totally back office, etc etc that will stimulate downtown office users.

Jacksonville just doesn't have the need for or a large "population" of downtown office users, which are usually service providers who exist due to the local economy.  The big 50 law firms will come, the top 10 design firms will come, the big 4 + Grant Thornton + Cohn Reznick accountants will come/expand, the consultants a la McKinsey/CapGemini/Accenture/Boston will come, the big marketing/PR agencies will come, etc if business in general comes to Jacksonville.  IT jobs will not translate into an expansion of DT users.  Big corporate relos and expansions will.  A big manufacturing industry will.  A big logistics/distribution/global trade network will.

I think it was a mistake paying Everbank to leave the SS for downtown...the city should try for organic growth instead, really target specific industries and tackle them.  Austin, Raleigh, Charlotte and Nashville have all found their niche and are all now indispensable national economies.  Chip manufacturing in the suburbs of Austin has translated into a thriving VC business, legal industry (patents, tech), etc which has translated into a thriving downtown.

[thelakelander]

What's your take on downtown St. Petersburg?  It's never really had a large office population in it's downtown and it plays fourth fiddle to downtown Tampa, Westshore and Gateway.  Nevertheless, it continues to pack in residential infill.

[Bill Hoff]

Many people simply prefer living downtown, no matter where they work.

[spuwho]

^I haven't been following things as much as I should lately... did you move to SF?

Yes

In Jacksonville, we can push infill, but the jobs have to come, too.  Infill won't happen without the jobs, the demand, etc.

I don't know what the recent numbers are but there's been a big push to increase jobs in downtown over the last year or two.  Most of us know about the Everbank deal but there have been several smaller companies relocating to the CBD as well. The most recent announcement came this week from RockTenn. It's not 2,500 but 70 here and there adds up, as long as you keep the existing jobs from leaving.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,17752.0.html

An overall thriving Jacksonville economy can bring jobs, especially high paying jobs, to downtown.  Even if the city builds up an industry, brings some more relos to the SS that aren't totally back office, etc etc that will stimulate downtown office users.

Jacksonville just doesn't have the need for or a large "population" of downtown office users, which are usually service providers who exist due to the local economy.  The big 50 law firms will come, the top 10 design firms will come, the big 4 + Grant Thornton + Cohn Reznick accountants will come/expand, the consultants a la McKinsey/CapGemini/Accenture/Boston will come, the big marketing/PR agencies will come, etc if business in general comes to Jacksonville.  IT jobs will not translate into an expansion of DT users.  Big corporate relos and expansions will.  A big manufacturing industry will.  A big logistics/distribution/global trade network will.

I think it was a mistake paying Everbank to leave the SS for downtown...the city should try for organic growth instead, really target specific industries and tackle them.  Austin, Raleigh, Charlotte and Nashville have all found their niche and are all now indispensable national economies.  Chip manufacturing in the suburbs of Austin has translated into a thriving VC business, legal industry (patents, tech), etc which has translated into a thriving downtown.

Simms, I agree up to a point. I agree the growth has to be organic but that will only take you so far.

Jacksonville has one great asset the rest of Florida doesn't. It has the broadest set of fundamentals supporting its overall GDP. It isn't dependent on one large economic factor to drive its tax base.  That means if one industry begins to die, it won't kill the whole area economy. Balanced growth make for long term stability in the city core and surrounding areas. That is something I can live with and promote.

I know many are looking for the big arrow that will be all things to the city, but I agree with you that a large downtown population is needed to reach momentum.

[simms3]

I think you'd find the resident profile in DT St. Petersburg to be pretty old.  Not many rentals.  I think typically people who live near a downtown tend to work in that downtown...not a lot of "reverse commuting" going on in that sense.  Plus the commute over Tampa Bay is atrocious...as much as I love a vibrant atmosphere, if I worked in DT Tampa, Westshore, even up in Clearwater, I would not want to live all the way down in DT St. Pete!!

I mean in all honesty, aside from St. Pete, Ft. Lauderdale, and Brickell, can anyone name another residential dominated central "business" district?  It's really a FL thing to have far more condo highrises than office towers in the downtown area.

Plus Bill, I'd have to add my own point to yours...throughout history young people have lived in downtowns.  My parents lived in New York when they were young, single and working.  Many people have done their time as a young person in Manhattan, Chicago, Boston, SF, etc.  Downtown living does not appeal to most families anywhere.  Look at the demographic profile of SF...lowest amount of under 18 and over 65 of any city...not many families at all in the entire city.  It's all single or coupled working people!

In FL the situation is less "downtown living" with the hustle and bustle that comes with that territory (the mad rush for the trains, the honking cabs, the throngs of homeless, the tourists, etc) as it is luxury resort style high rise condo living with waterfront views and shops/restaurants to stroll.  It's closer to a retirement haven in DT St. Pete than an actual downtown, and I believe that retirees make up a large segment of the DT population.

You need young highly paid college grads working downtown for law firms, design studios, corporate offices, banks, consulting firms, global engineering firms, etc to make for a 24 hour downtown.  Having an empty nester culture works, too, but living in Jacksonville why would you move "downtown" when the kids move out to college when you can move to the beach?  That's what most people do.

[simms3]

^I haven't been following things as much as I should lately... did you move to SF?

Yes

In Jacksonville, we can push infill, but the jobs have to come, too.  Infill won't happen without the jobs, the demand, etc.

I don't know what the recent numbers are but there's been a big push to increase jobs in downtown over the last year or two.  Most of us know about the Everbank deal but there have been several smaller companies relocating to the CBD as well. The most recent announcement came this week from RockTenn. It's not 2,500 but 70 here and there adds up, as long as you keep the existing jobs from leaving.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,17752.0.html

An overall thriving Jacksonville economy can bring jobs, especially high paying jobs, to downtown.  Even if the city builds up an industry, brings some more relos to the SS that aren't totally back office, etc etc that will stimulate downtown office users.

Jacksonville just doesn't have the need for or a large "population" of downtown office users, which are usually service providers who exist due to the local economy.  The big 50 law firms will come, the top 10 design firms will come, the big 4 + Grant Thornton + Cohn Reznick accountants will come/expand, the consultants a la McKinsey/CapGemini/Accenture/Boston will come, the big marketing/PR agencies will come, etc if business in general comes to Jacksonville.  IT jobs will not translate into an expansion of DT users.  Big corporate relos and expansions will.  A big manufacturing industry will.  A big logistics/distribution/global trade network will.

I think it was a mistake paying Everbank to leave the SS for downtown...the city should try for organic growth instead, really target specific industries and tackle them.  Austin, Raleigh, Charlotte and Nashville have all found their niche and are all now indispensable national economies.  Chip manufacturing in the suburbs of Austin has translated into a thriving VC business, legal industry (patents, tech), etc which has translated into a thriving downtown.

Simms, I agree up to a point. I agree the growth has to be organic but that will only take you so far.

Jacksonville has one great asset the rest of Florida doesn't. It has the broadest set of fundamentals supporting its overall GDP. It isn't dependent on one large economic factor to drive its tax base.  That means if one industry begins to die, it won't kill the whole area economy. Balanced growth make for long term stability in the city core and surrounding areas. That is something I can live with and promote.

I know many are looking for the big arrow that will be all things to the city, but I agree with you that a large downtown population is needed to reach momentum.

I think it's easy to say a "diverse economy" is better, and of course having a diverse economy is good, but really excelling in 1-2 very particular areas in addition to having that diverse economy seems to give cities a real competitive edge.  It can make a secondary/tertiary market act like a primary market for some for some industries, which then means the capital markets tend to open up a bit more.

It's not like Austin is entirely dependent on chip manufacturing and software development.  It has UT and serves as the capital of the 2nd largest state in the country (read stable government employment), and has developed a booming hospitality/service and tourism industry.  But Austin is also the 2nd most important software hub in the country, pulling in one of the largest amount of VC in the country.  It's on everyone's radar.

Charlotte is an indispensable banking hub...it's not just BofA and Wells Fargo, it is every investment bank that's HQ'd in NYC with their only other/secondary office located in Charlotte.  If banking dies, however, Charlotte won't.  It has a large "corporate" base of F500s not even associated with the financial industry.  It's also a regional hub of all business for the Carolinas, moreso than Raleigh-Durham, and having Charlotte-Douglas airport and all the other big city amenities Charlotte has helps.

Houston is the energy capital of the world...but it also has Texas Medical Center and the port.  Sure oil prices can really affect the economy there, but that city is not going to die anytime soon, if ever.

If Detroit is an example...I would be willing to bet public corruption and bad weather did more to destroy that city than auto manufacturing leaving.  Look at Pittsburgh and Minneapolis, especially the latter.  Also - New Orleans, which has warm weather.  Would be what Houston is today if not for public corruption driving out all the energy companies.

If there is anything to be learned, it's that excelling in 1-2 "now" industries or in 1-2 areas where your city has a real strong natural advantage, with enough diversity to be flexible/adapt in tough times or times of change and strong ethical city leadership, is what sets great cities apart from dying cities.

[thelakelander]

I think you'd find the resident profile in DT St. Petersburg to be pretty old.  Not many rentals.  I think typically people who live near a downtown tend to work in that downtown...not a lot of "reverse commuting" going on in that sense.

I'm not sure where the numbers stand today but DT St. Pete has visually gotten much younger over the last decade or so.  There's also lots of rentals, although these projects tend to be much smaller than the condo projects from the real estate boom.  For me, there was a much larger number of young people on the streets during my stay in December than I ever remember when growing up in Central Florida. Back in those days, that city was considered to be "God's waiting room."

I mean in all honesty, aside from St. Pete, Ft. Lauderdale, and Brickell, can anyone name another residential dominated central "business" district?  It's really a FL thing to have far more condo highrises than office towers in the downtown area.

Most of Florida's second tier and smaller cities probably meet this bill. Delray Beach, West Palm Beach, Hollywood, Winter Park, Sarasota, etc. However, there are a few decent sized communities out there that have been pretty successful recently in adding urban housing that have less downtown workers than Jax does currently. One that comes to mind is Norfolk.  It only has 30,000 downtown employees.  With that said, if it were up to me, I'd spend more time focusing on improving the quality-of-life in Jacksonville's overall urban core.  Ultimately, DT Jax will only be as successful as the communities surrounding it.

[Bill Hoff]

Simms,

I think your generalizations are too sweeping. I know personally know plenty of people that work in the suburbs but wouldn't enjoy living there. Thus they don't. Also, most people do not move to the beach once they become emptynesters.

Perhaps it's semantics, or your 'Downtown' definition is different.