Orlando & Trains, Why so many, why now?

[spuwho]

The Orlando Sentinel looks at the sudden boom in rail in Orlando.  4 proposals are underway for passenger rail into and around Orlando, what gives? And why now?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-02-17/news/os-trains-metro-orlando-20130217_1_american-maglev-orange-blossom-express-passenger-train

Metro Orlando, which pursued trains unsuccessfully for decades, could be virtually overrun by them in a few years.

Four systems are in various stages of planning and one, the $1.2 billion SunRail commuter train, is under construction and almost certainly will be accepting fares next year.

The builders of a second train, the $1.5 billion All Aboard Florida carrier that would link Orlando International Airport with South Florida, are negotiating the final route with property owners and have promised to be running in 2015.

The owner of American Maglev of Georgia, Tony Morris, has said repeatedly he could build a $315 million elevated system between the airport and the Orange County Convention Center no later than 2015, depending on how quickly he wins government approval.

A fourth proposal, the Orange Blossom Express, would run between Lake County and downtown Orlando on an old line used for freight. Local, state and federal governments have contributed $18.4 million to improve the tracks and are launching a study to see whether a passenger train is possible.

So what gives? Why is Central Florida all of a sudden so popular with trains?

"It seems to be kind of contagious," said Gary Huttmann, assistant director of MetroPlan Orlando, which sets transportation policy in Orange, Seminole and Osceola counties.

Huttmann was kidding, but the proposals might be complementary because they all could eventually feed passengers to one another. Huttman, though, said he doubts all will be built because of the expense.

Jim Harrison, Orange County's top transportation manager, said the interest is the result of two factors:

•The region's growth. Metro Orlando now has more than 2.2 million residents, making it the third-most-populous region in the state behind Greater Miami and the Tampa Bay area.

•The lack of transportation options beyond the automobile and buses makes Central Florida a natural for mass transit.

"We're just a community developing a bigger appetite for transit," Harrison said. "We are a little bit behind the times when it comes to transit."

If all the trains are built, they would create thousands of construction jobs, as well as hundreds of full-time jobs related to the operation of the systems.

Supporters say the trains also would trigger new development, particularly apartment houses, shops and restaurants near stations. More than $1 billion worth of construction is planned around the 12 stops that SunRail will use when its first phase is expected to open in May 2014.

SunRail intends to get the bulk of its riders from Interstate 4, which is supposed to undergo a massive rebuild starting late next year or in early 2015. The work, slated to last six years, likely will further clog an already congested highway.

Train supporters say the systems would take cars off not just I-4, but other roads, too, freeing lanes for drivers and reducing air pollution because fewer engines would be burning oil.

Those are among the pitches made by Morris, who like All Aboard Florida has pledged to build and operate his system solely with private money.

American Maglev would get tourists off frequently clogged International Drive and other roads in south Orange, Morris said.

"That means you can drive your car and it will be easier," Morris said.

A study by the Texas Transportation Institute concluded that mass-transit systems do relieve congestion, saving 865 million hours of delay and 450 million gallons of fuel in 2012 because drivers were not on the road, but rather on a train or bus.

In Orlando, according to the report, the Lynx regional-bus system saved motorists 1.7 million hours of delays in traffic jams and almost 38 million gallons of gasoline.

The addition of trains to the transportation mix would provide even more relief, said Virginia Miller, a spokeswoman for the American Public Transportation Association, a pro-mass-transit group.

"The more mass transportation you have, the more that will help to improve travel on the road and lessen congestion," Miller said.

[thelakelander]

Lol, a quote from Gary Huttmann....I used to work with him a few years back before he landed the MetroPlan job. Anyway, follow the money. Rail spurs economic development. Orlando had to learn that the hard way, declining federal LRT money in the late 1990s that was then sent to Charlotte to construct their LRT project. Anyway, I doubt two of the four mentioned projects will happen anytime soon. The Maglev is a pipe dream and I doubt commuter rail to Lake County will generate decent ridership.

[Ocklawaha]

I wouldn't be so fast to short sale the Lake County Commuter Line.  I think it will happen but it is not going to be a mainline operation and will probably resemble Nashville's Star. Reason?  It's 100% on the Florida Central Railroad, a business hungry aggressive shortline that is promoting the idea as much as the cities or counties. The track is only good for about 25 MPH right now and even that will slop the soup out of your bowl, so they're going to have to come up with a pot of money to upgrade that from class 1 or 2, (10-25 mph) to a class 3 or 4 (40-60 mph). As long as they don't demand too much in the way of upgrades they've got a pretty good shot at this. This might well be Florida's first branchline commuter rail link, unless Tampa gets its act together for a Sarasota or Brooksville line, or Jacksonville gets the 'S' running to the northside first.

[thelakelander]

^I don't see an active passenger rail system on that line being in operation by the end of the decade.  That's what I mean by "soon."  The only two Orlando area systems I see actually coming on line within the next few years are Sunrail and AAF.

Oh, and don't hold your breath on anything happening in Tampa either.  We're ahead of them when it comes to implementing some sort of rail transit that doesn't already exist today.

[tufsu1]

^ well Pinellas County is gearing up for a 2014 referendum to fund light rail...and there's strong talk in Hillsborough now of also going back to voters in 2014....but with a scaled back starter rail line and possibly only a 1/2 cent sales tax.

[Ocklawaha]

We were 'ahead' of EVERYBODY when I laid out the streetcar plan 30 years ago and DDA took it on as a 'project.'  We see how far that got us!  If they successfully torpedo the Mobility Fee I really think it's more or less over for Jax for another 20 years or so. (Yeah, read that COLOMBIA is sounding more fun by the day... hell I've probably got a better chance of getting shot at here)

TUFSU1, You are so right, the folks in Pinellas County have been quietly moving forward with a streetcar or light rail plan for some time, and those two branchlines Tampa - Sarasota and Tampa - Brooksville would be a piece of cake to bring up to class 4 standards and get commuter rail moving on them.

Stretching that WAY OUT, consider if they used the rail trail right-of-way, that Brooksville line could once again bridge the gap to Inverness and meet the Starke - Alachua - Dunnellon route a few miles south of Dunnellon on the Crystal River Branch. Florida could develop this lightly used line into a passenger corridor for the west coast. For those that don't know it, their is a CSX mainline from Jax to Baldwin and Starke part of which could play some future role in Commuter Rail.

[thelakelander]

^ well Pinellas County is gearing up for a 2014 referendum to fund light rail...and there's strong talk in Hillsborough now of also going back to voters in 2014....but with a scaled back starter rail line and possibly only a 1/2 cent sales tax.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if the Pinellas referendum passes.  I'm not even sure LRT is the right rail type for Pinellas.  What's the desired corridor and how much is it estimated to cost?

As for Tampa, placing LRT in the middle of I-275 between DT and West Shore is one of the craziest rail planning ideas I've seen recently.  It's like the concept of investing in rail to spur TOD isn't a priority in Tampa.  There's plenty of data available to show its not ideal to put LRT in the middle of expressways, as far as spurring economic development is concerned.

[tufsu1]

I'm with you Lake...it will be a tough hill to climb in Pinellas...as for Hillsborough, the downtown-Westshore issue is quite complicated....thankfully though, the new plan this time is to just start with USF to downtown (using the CSX tracks)

[thelakelander]

Lol......LRT on a CSX owned corridor.  Good luck with that one.  They'll have to buy most of CSX's lines in Hillsborough and Pinellas upfront to pull that off. I'm late to the party but why not Kennedy for the DT to Westshort link?  FDOT D7 not willing to play ball?

[Ocklawaha]

I think the Pinellas line will ultimately be streetcar, at least that is what the conversation has been about for some time. As for LRT on a Freeway, LA, Portland, San Jose all have lines that run in the center of freeways, but none of those segments are very long. I'm not sure whats up in Tampa, they seem as clueless as Jacksonville when it comes to rail. I still think a DMU/RDC to Brooksville and Sarasota on the branchlines (which CSX would probably love someone to rebuild for them) is the best idea for starters.

[thelakelander]

^Regarding LRT on freeways, in Portland, LA, and San Jose, what segments of those lines did the most TOD occur on?  I suspect the freeway based segments saw less because of the decreased frontage for development opportunity.  Oh, yes, Tampa does appear to be somewhat clueless as Jax.  Quite frankly, they'd be better off (like us with the line to JAXPORT), buying most of their local rail corridors from CSX, which would provide them with several interesting options or moving people and generating revenue off freight to help cover the cost of operations.

[tufsu1]

Lol......LRT on a CSX owned corridor.  Good luck with that one. 

who said anything about LRT....these days they are thinking of going the DMU route...like Austin, San Diego's Sprinter, and New Jersey's River Line...that said, they will still need to buy the tracks from CSX and agree to temporal separation.

as for the Westshore link, Kennedy got cut early in the process...it was either I-275 median or the Cypress corridor through West Tampa (somewhat transit-dependent area)....and while the one accessed larger populations, the other was far quicker...and guess what is most important to choice riders connecting to/from the airport and westshore buisness district.

as for Ock's comment on Pinellas.....no, they aren't going streetcar....this is an LRT plan all the way from Clearwater to St. Pete..with a separate leg across the bay to Westshore and downtown Tampa

http://pinellasontrack.com/

[Ocklawaha]

as for Ock's comment on Pinellas.....no, they aren't going streetcar....this is an LRT plan all the way from Clearwater to St. Pete..with a separate leg across the bay to Westshore and downtown Tampa

http://pinellasontrack.com/

Yeah, I saw that after I posted; then joined my neighbors in the street for another version of 'Street Party WGV' at least until the drunken debauchery and general moral corruption spun out of hand... again...LOL. So I was out of touch when you posted TU. (I live on a very crazy street). The site is well done, as are the presentations. Must have been some years ago that they were flirting with streetcar, I remember reading about it in one of the trade magazines.

The Clearwater - St. Pete segment seems well thought out, though a small portion does follow the CSX near Clearwater and again near downtown St. Pete.

SAN JOSE, CA. GUADALUPE CORRIDOR

Lake, I know the LRT in the middle of the 210 Freeway came about as it was the Santa Fe mainline which was then shifted to another route, leaving an excellent raceway for LRT intact. It runs several miles through Pasadena along the center of the 210 aka: Foothill Freeway from Sierra Madre to Marenga Avenues. It actually has a good bit of TOD along it as it is well connected with pedestrian flyovers from the center station platforms, some of which go directly into buildings. Portlands is on the Airport route where the Max Light Rail passes along 84 freeway through Sullivan's Gulch, though it is on the side of the freeway through Sullivan's Gulch toward Hollywood and the Hollywood Transit Station at 42nd. This is Randall O'Toole's favorite line as he bitches about all things rail and is one of the area's where MAX could have been done better. San Jose is the worst example where the Guadalupe highway project managers basically bollixed the transit project by redesigning the roadway into a freeway â€" forcing a redesign of the Guadalupe LRT alignment, with full grade separations, and making access to LRT more difficult and costly. At the same time, the new design speeded up highway travel, ultimately impacting actual vs. projected ridership. Dumb as a box of rocks, at least Florida cities have good company.

[Ocklawaha]

Here is the absolutely great presentation video for Pinellas On Track in case you didn't check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Vzs8A934F4Q?version=3&hl=en_US

God I hope someone at JTA watches this... IDEA!

[thelakelander]

Lol......LRT on a CSX owned corridor.  Good luck with that one. 

who said anything about LRT....these days they are thinking of going the DMU route...like Austin, San Diego's Sprinter, and New Jersey's River Line...that said, they will still need to buy the tracks from CSX and agree to temporal separation.

Bingo!

as for the Westshore link, Kennedy got cut early in the process...it was either I-275 median or the Cypress corridor through West Tampa (somewhat transit-dependent area)....and while the one accessed larger populations, the other was far quicker...and guess what is most important to choice riders connecting to/from the airport and westshore buisness district.

What was the time difference?  I'd still go for the route that accesses a larger transit-dependent population.  Knowing that section of Tampa, I can't imagine LRT on Cypress would lose many choice riders considering that would be the only LRT link between West Shore and DT.  In fact, as TOD fills up around Cypress, it would probably start to attract more choice riders.

as for Ock's comment on Pinellas.....no, they aren't going streetcar....this is an LRT plan all the way from Clearwater to St. Pete..with a separate leg across the bay to Westshore and downtown Tampa

http://pinellasontrack.com/

Nice website.