JIA Concourse A almost done?

[Steve]

I'd agree with what you have said.  Take Delta for example - it already has like 8 flights a day between JAX and ATL, which puts Jacksonville then 1 hours from anywhere in the world.

Withe that said, the German charter plane landing here was a little bit of an exception, since they had no notice for that one.  I'd have to think that if the airport was expecting the flight, they could have handled it much better.

Are they developing any sort of international facilities in their master plan?

[DetroitInJAX]

Sorry for my long response time, have been busy.

as far as I know they are developing one gate in concourse C for the use of international flights.

[blizz01]

So then, what qualifies JAX as an "International Airport"?  Are there still directs to cities in Canada or the Carribbean?  What is the criteria?

[Ocklawaha]

International Airport, has come to mean "GIANT BIG GO ANYWHERE PLACE" but such is not the case. There are dozens if not hundreds or thousands of "international airports" in tiny little dusty places like Douglas, AZ or Tombstone. It just means they have the facility to isolate, and clear a flight, passengers or freight for entry or exit from the USA. So yes, there are agents that cover several tiny airports and work out of little metal sheds, clearing 4 guys in a Cessna... Still an INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT... or "Port of Entry". Since we are a large international shipping center, US Customs has a large presence here. The failure to get on the ball with the German flight could be chocked up to "Your kidding right? a big plane wants to clear here?" These boys and girls need a swift kick.

As for Hub, we are not the only player in the World Air Game, and as up and coming lines like COPA out of Panama (and everywhere else in the America's) expand, we could attract that type of hub. We could also attract any airline that is sick of the fee's at the high rent airports such as Atlanta, Charlotte or Memphis.
I worked for PI when USAir ate our system, I know what the plans were and it still makes me and the other Piedmoniters Ill! I'd walk before I'd fly USAir. The fuel future may dictate the airlines go back to a point to point type route system and not overfly any major markets. Stopovers may become more common. Planes will go in two distinct directions, super huge for your NEW YORK, CHICAGO, TOKYO, BOGOTA type flights, and just large enough to get off with a full load everywhere else.

Where I feel we could now sell the hub or point to point concept is simple, Don't overfly Florida's largest City to get to Florida's metropolitan airports... Land it here, and send out the Fokkers, Dashes and 37's from here to all of the Sunshine destinations. So rather then fly a 1/2 full 777 from NY to Miami, another NY to Tampa, another NY to Orlando, and a 737 from NY to Daytona, and NY to Ft. Myers...

WHAT IF...

We fly one 777 TWICE daily to and from JAX, across the concourse into the smaller jets and right on to the Sunshine States playgounds. It's no longer about what the passenger wants, it's now a balance of staying in the air $$$ and service to the market. In that respect, the old railroads had it right.

WE CALL IT...

JAX!

Ocklawaha

[Steve]

So then, what qualifies JAX as an "International Airport"?  Are there still directs to cities in Canada or the Carribbean?  What is the criteria?

I believe it has to do with having customs/immigration facilities, not the scheduled flights.

[chipwich]

All this talk of JIA becoming a hub is actually quite interesting.

I think people need to take into account that hubs are not always good for the local passengers. Hubs drive out other carriers, especially in small to medium size airports like Jacksonville's .  Thus, while we may have more passengers go through the airport and we will have more direct flights, we will pay significantly more for those flights.  People in Atlanta get screwed, yes I mean screwed by Delta everyday.  I know people in Atlanta who very very thankful that Airtran finally came around and expanded their operations there.  Keep in mind ATL doesn't even have Southwest. 

So do you think Southwest doesn't want be in Atlanta?  Of course they do, but if you were Delta or any other main hub carrier, you would fight tooth and nail to keep your competition out.

Jacksonville is blessed with an awesome airport.  Our airport is clean, not large, easy to get through.  You can't say that about most airports in the country (including mega-hubs and samller airports alike).  We are served by 11 different airlines. 

Truly, I know we all would like more direct flights.  They add convenience, better prices, and more prominence to a city.  Direct flights are great for attracting and keeping more business (travel and relocation) and tourists (both leisure and convention based).  As our city continues to grow, so too will originations and destination travelers.  That is what our airport is here to serve.  JIA will probably continue to add between 150-300,000 O&D passengers each year.  That will create new flights, more destinations, more frequencies, competition between carriers and hopefully more amenities.  We should however expect that many airlines will be overly optimistic and try routes that may not survive. It doesn't just happen here.  It happens everywhere.  In time however, the increase in passengers will bring about more flights.   

[blizz01]

I had no idea that carriers such as Southwest didn't service Atlanta; neither does JetBlue just digging deeper.  Those are the types of airlines that people seem to prefer, or, maybe because we are NOT a hub enjoy more from a convenience & monetary standpoint.  I suppose the inverse of our gripe in Atlanta and/or Charlotte would be that they are held hostage by lack of choices regionally (Delta, USAir; AirTran....).  Pick your poison.

[reednavy]

Yup, Delta and AirTran have choke holds on KATL. Southwest can't fly out of KDFW(Dallas-Ft.Worth Int'l), they must fly out of Love Field, the original Dallas airport. Also, Southwest can't use KMIA(Miami Int'l), they must use KFLL(Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood Int'l), caue KMIA and KDFW are major American Airlines hubs. Lastly, Southwest has to fly into far away Islip Airport in the middle of Long Island, and call it NYC!

[DetroitInJAX]

International Airport, has come to mean "GIANT BIG GO ANYWHERE PLACE" but such is not the case. There are dozens if not hundreds or thousands of "international airports" in tiny little dusty places like Douglas, AZ or Tombstone. It just means they have the facility to isolate, and clear a flight, passengers or freight for entry or exit from the USA. So yes, there are agents that cover several tiny airports and work out of little metal sheds, clearing 4 guys in a Cessna... Still an INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT... or "Port of Entry". Since we are a large international shipping center, US Customs has a large presence here. The failure to get on the ball with the German flight could be chocked up to "Your kidding right? a big plane wants to clear here?" These boys and girls need a swift kick.

As for Hub, we are not the only player in the World Air Game, and as up and coming lines like COPA out of Panama (and everywhere else in the America's) expand, we could attract that type of hub. We could also attract any airline that is sick of the fee's at the high rent airports such as Atlanta, Charlotte or Memphis.
I worked for PI when USAir ate our system, I know what the plans were and it still makes me and the other Piedmoniters Ill! I'd walk before I'd fly USAir. The fuel future may dictate the airlines go back to a point to point type route system and not overfly any major markets. Stopovers may become more common. Planes will go in two distinct directions, super huge for your NEW YORK, CHICAGO, TOKYO, BOGOTA type flights, and just large enough to get off with a full load everywhere else.

Where I feel we could now sell the hub or point to point concept is simple, Don't overfly Florida's largest City to get to Florida's metropolitan airports... Land it here, and send out the Fokkers, Dashes and 37's from here to all of the Sunshine destinations. So rather then fly a 1/2 full 777 from NY to Miami, another NY to Tampa, another NY to Orlando, and a 737 from NY to Daytona, and NY to Ft. Myers...

WHAT IF...

We fly one 777 TWICE daily to and from JAX, across the concourse into the smaller jets and right on to the Sunshine States playgounds. It's no longer about what the passenger wants, it's now a balance of staying in the air $$$ and service to the market. In that respect, the old railroads had it right.

WE CALL IT...

JAX!

Ocklawaha

But... People dont WANT to stop in Jacksonville.  Nonstops can and do command a premium.  People like my parents (who live in Detroit), always fly Northwest.. Why?  Not because they like Northwest, but because they can fly nonstop to Florida just that much easier, instead of spending all day in transit.

Who's going to want to fly Albany-New York City-Jacksonville-Orlando?  Thats like 9 hours in transit.  The problem is, most of the cities you mentioned command tons more air service than Jacksonville.  Orlando gets pretty much hourly flights from New York all day long on a host of carriers.  Continental, for example, operates 230'ish seat B757-300s to Orlando.  The largest we get here are 737-300's (which are under 150).  Even cities like Fort Myers get more traffic.  There's more demand for these destinations.  Jacksonville is, and will always be, primarily a business market.  We are the only city in Florida that gets mainline United service and not their "TED" experiment (all coach) thats aimed at leisure markets.

Sending airplanes to all the "Sunshine" destinations already happens. Its called Gulfstream International Airlines dba. Continental Connection and it operates a point-to-point system in Florida (with a focus on Tampa and Fort Lauderdale).  It carried 62,000 passengers systemwide last month, a load factor averaging out to be 55.09 percent.  Service is provided to Tampa, Jacksonville, Gainesville, Pensacola, Fort Walton, Orlando, Naples, Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, Key West, and Tallahassee, as well as 10 destinations in the Bahamas.

All in all, what Im trying to say is that the days of Jacksonville being "Where Florida Begins" are over.  Florida begins for millions of people per year when they step off a 767 in Tampa, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, etc.  We may be the largest city in Florida by land area, but we're not the heart of Florida anymore.  We're just a big city that blows up its downtown history.

[Ocklawaha]

What I'm predicting (though I do agree with you on your passenger/comfort/Center of Florida points) is that unless lightning strikes the Whitehouse, and some cosmic message is delivered (not that they'd understand it anyway) the fuel thing could very well spell the END of aviation as anything but critical business travel and the military. Hell they might be flying hang gliders or parasails in a few years.

I think it will come down to the ecomony of survival when fuel drives the price of a New York - Tampa ticket into the $7,000 dollar bracket... IF any air carriers survive, they will:

1. All be flying something like the 737

2. Point to Point routes with lot's of stops

3. Zeppelins (you just knew I'd toss this one in...yes I'm a REAL believer)

Just look at that #3 for a second, and toss this idea around. Moves in a straight line over the cities, cruises at about 120 KMPH. (which is easily equal to about 200 on the ground) Carrys the same or 2 or 3 or 4 times the load of any available jet aircraft... including containers. Has the most NASA like instruments made so it won't be flying into thunder storms. But look at that bottom line... Roll back the page to the 1930's... BY FACT the Graf Zeppelin used as much fuel flying from New York to Los Angeles, as a 747 uses going from the JIA concourse to the end of the runway!

So what will the future hold? I once made some real good money in airline stocks, today I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Zeppelin Aircraft...Maybe. I think we'll see the new $40 BILLION DOLLAR investment in passenger rail (something I haven't mentioned in these threads until now) rip the guts out of the remaining air travel. We'll have high speed rail, and a few, maybe very few, will fly. Those that fly will do so more like a grasshopper then a hornet. They just won't be able to afford it any other way.

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

I think we'll see the US start building new refineries and tapping into our own oil reserves before air travel dies because of high fuel costs.

By the way, can you give more insight into $40 billion dollar investment in passenger rail thing you mentioned.

[Steve]

We'll have high speed rail, and a few, maybe very few, will fly. Those that fly will do so more like a grasshopper then a hornet. They just won't be able to afford it any other way.[/color] [/b]

Ocklawaha

Even if we have high speed rail, I don't see "few" people flying.  For example, a Delta flight from ATL to LAX is about 5 hours, but the same trip with high speed rail (assuming 180 mile/hr) is 10 hours.  Yes, with flying, most people get there two hours before (although more and more people are signigh up to be "frequent travelers", which gets you to the head of the security line).  Assume 30 minutes to grab your luggage, and a 45 minute trip to LA's downtown area from LAX.  You are still at about 7 hours.  Unless there is a solid cost savings, then I don't see it happening.

Take Europe for Example.  I can fly from London to Rome on RyanAir for about 20 pounds (40 US) each way, and it's a three and a half hour flight.  I know I can't do that on a train.

I'm not saying that trains will not have their place, but I don't see "few" people flying.

[Ocklawaha]

My projection is a bit more distant then you assume in your reply Steve. I'm thinking when oil costs like gold, and trains run on electricity from wind, solar, hydro, or hydrogen. Rails, will again be the king of the transportation hill.

Ocklawaha

[gradco2004]

Wow, I had no clue anyone else knew about RyanAir. They are cheap, but you have to work to get a seat. Not to mention, they are the greyhound of air carriers. I wish we had something even comparable to them here.

[Ocklawaha]

We did have, and JIA was a major base for them... It was called:


PEOPLE EXPRESS





You really can't believe the crap that came flooding into our airport when they went out with those big jets. The concourses would be full of sleeping bags, paper sacks, odd smells and god knows what else. It was all cash, all first come first served, order your meal and pay in advance stuff. It was ugly. They had a gate or two out beyond Piedmont when we owned the whole end of the airport. Our passengers had to put up with these flying homeless, until some hungry company made a bid for all those new jets. People Express was gone and we cheered, just a year or two later, the same thing happened to us at PI!

Be careful what you wish for...

Ocklawaha