The Role Of Mass Transit In Brooklyn's Renaissance

[Ocklawaha]

Oh and you asked me how many cities were in the UMTA program, it started out with 38 cities applying for an automated people mover.  The technology was at the 1964 NYC Worlds Fair Expo, designed by Disney, people rode in mock sports cars on what amounted to a conveyor belt. Then a new line was built as transportation in Disneyland's Tomorrow Land but the 'vehicles' had no wheels or moving parts except for a roof that tilted out of the way mechanically as the 'car' entered a station. If I recall they ran on 2 second headways (Randall O'Toole would be proud)  and the guideway was a system of hundreds of rubber tires powered electrically. UMTA got a hold on the concept and working with Disney, and announced the pilot program. In typical fashion cities were eliminated in rounds, I think it went down to 10, then they decided on 5 winners but only funded 3 systems.

[thelakelander]

So those funded cities were Jacksonville, Miami, and Detroit.  Any idea on who the other winners were that didn't receive funding?

[Charles Hunter]

According to this article, LA, St. Paul, Cleveland, and Houston were the first cities selected, and Baltimore, Miami, and Detroit could develop DPMs (Downtown People Movers) with existing grants.
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/dpmhist.htm
Then Congress added Indianapolis, Jacksonville, and St. Louis, and UMTA added Norfolk, VA.  Cleveland, Houston, and St. Paul (the last after a public vote) withdrew.
Interestingly, Indianapolis now has a privately funded DPM.

[Noone]

Thanks!

Your welcome.

I'm definitely warming up to rail. It was MJ and last year when we were in Boston we spent an extra day just using the rail and then took Amtrack to Maine.

Have you guys reached out to CSX? Has anyone approached anyone about the laying of the track and making this a jobs program for Jacksonville residents? Again I don't pretend for a second to know how the track is laid but I keep thinking about the Pub Crawl Rail Team and just laying 25' or 50' of track. For those people who are out of worIk the rail guys who would be overseeing this may say "Hey Joe, Did you see that guy Mike?"  "I did. Before  the last break he had a Food truck lined up and was telling everyone they had 5 minutes to run into Mark's and get their drink orders lined up." I'm glad he's on our team,"

I believe JTA has approached CSX about studying to possibly utilize some of their corridors for commuter rail and that continues to be an ongoing process.  However, CSX doesn't stand in the way of utilizing the Skyway to access Brooklyn or a streetcar line between Riverside and Downtown.  Neither option would utilize or cross CSX ROW.

HO,HO,HO, Away the tables and chairs Go. 2012-732

You continue to miss the point with CSX.  CSX- Where are YOU? Mr. Ward, Mr. Halverson. Does everyone remember when Ronnie Fussell at a Jacksonville city council meeting showed up with a box of studies and reports and put them on the table for all to see? It was a big overflowing box. We don't need a study to lay rail!

Right now we have the Hemming Plaza Seat  Hoggers that will soon be replaced by the Hemming Plaza Bench Warmers 2012-732 and someone correct me but the accelerated legislative calendar can have this done by Jan. 8th.

PUBLIC, PRIVATE, PARTNERSHIP! Just what is It?

Not talking about crossing any CSX row. Just a straight streetcar line of track with oversight by  CSX a corporate GIANT DOWNTOWN and turn it into a job fair for anyone who wants to volunteer and Make It Happen and at the same time give the rail guys an opportunity to evaluate people that may want a career. Take it straight down Bay St.

Hey, Donna and Tim Deegan  what about a 100' of pink railroad ties and pink rail?
The Sulzbacher rail team
CSX rail team
Jaguars rail team
Jail rail team (Why not?)
Hemming Plaza rail team
My favorite.
The Pub Crawl rail team

I'm All In

2012 is 2025

[Ocklawaha]

Noone, you would soon discover that the very LAST people on earth that would have anything to do with passengers (liability) on rail, are the railroad companies themselves. This is part of the reason why the entire world industry is watching the FECI/All Aboard Florida concept.

From the late 1930's-early-1950's the railroads poured billions into modern passenger trains, stations and employees, but by 1959 it was clear that it would be a disastrous investment. It literally brought down the entire industry and you might recall by 1970, (when my High School counselor laughed and told me to get out of his office for suggesting I would one day work for a railroad) it appeared to many that there would be no railroads by 2000.

The government stepped in in 1971 and took a very few '15' trains for a 'new national system' and the railroads became freight only carriers. By 1990, with fuel prices climbing, and deregulation allowing the railroads to abandon their branchlines and focus on intercity freight the mold was set for the future.

Railroads as a rule do no want you on their property, don't want to open ANY door to passengers and will absolutely do anything in their power to stop a passenger project. Just look at the Tampa Streetcar's $400,000 dollar insurance premium because they simply cross a seldom used spur of CSX.

Many people have come to us shouting 'Trains for people - call CSX or FEC or NS' but the truth is we have no friends in the industry.

[thelakelander]

Yeah, Noone, CSX is the last company in town that's going to do what you're suggesting with CSX for a streetcar. You'd save time and money avoiding them.

[spuwho]

Hawaii is getting a 20 mile system. 3.3 billion will come from local taxes...wow!

WASHINGTON â€" The Federal Transit Administration has signed an agreement to provide $1.55 billion to the city and county of Honolulu to build Hawaii’s first-ever rail transit system. The 20-mile line will have 21 stations that will link West Oahu, Pearl City, Aloha Stadium, Pearl Harbor Naval Base, Honolulu International Airport, downtown Honolulu, and Ala Moana Center, Oahu’s largest shopping center.

In total, the Federal Transit Administration is providing just under $1.8 billion in federal funds for the $5.1 billion project, including $1.55 billion through the Major Capital Investments Program, $209.9 million in federal formula funds and $4 million from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Local taxpayers are providing $3.358 billion â€" about 65 percent â€" of the total project cost through a half-percent general excise and use tax surcharge paid by Oahu tourists, residents, and businesses.

[ricker]

A 20 mile system for less than 3.5 billion!

that IS impressive!

in other news,
it deeply concerns me that the aerial with overlay for this article's subject matter leaves the Old Fire Station no.5 covered by an ominous shadow.

Jax Tracks could revive our endangered structures!

spuwho_You suggesting another Better Jax Plan -esque half cent tax hike?
For a special taxing district, to complement the Mobility Plan, I might vote YES

[spuwho]

A 20 mile system for less than 3.5 billion!

that IS impressive!

in other news,
it deeply concerns me that the aerial with overlay for this article's subject matter leaves the Old Fire Station no.5 covered by an ominous shadow.

Jax Tracks could revive our endangered structures!

spuwho_You suggesting another Better Jax Plan -esque half cent tax hike?
For a special taxing district, to complement the Mobility Plan, I might vote YES

The project is actually over 5 billion:

In total, the Federal Transit Administration is providing just under $1.8 billion in federal funds for the $5.1 billion project,

I am an advocate for "directed" taxing when it comes to transit.  I don't like transit funding being mixed in with large funds with other purposes as it makes it subject to too much political dogfighting.  But before we talk taxing bodies or directives, we really need a comprehensive plan.

I hope the funds out of the mobility plan will trigger better planning activities.

[thelakelander]

A 20 mile system for less than 3.5 billion!

that IS impressive!

The Hawaii project is actually pretty expensive.  I believe it's heavy rail.

[spuwho]

You can get the details on the new HART System here:

http://www.honolulutransit.org/

Most of it follows an old military narrow gauge railroad ROW that encompassed Pearl Harbor and down to the ports of Honolulu.

As you can see they are moving along with the project.



I have been on the tourist line that remains that starts in Ewa past the West Loch between Pearl and Barbers Point and runs out to the power plant on the SW side of Oahu. Oddly, you can follow the ROW on Google Maps as the camera car drove all the way out to Kaena Point on the dirt. Oahu has a rich rail history dating back to when it was a leading exporter of sugar cane and pineapples. The military rail was all that was left by the early 80's.

http://www.hawaiianrailway.com/index.html



So while it appears this is Hawaii's first "rail" activity, it actually is just a revival. Ask Ock if he has ever seen a GE 25 ton narrow gauge switcher?

[Ocklawaha]

Balance of the Hawaii Information moved to a new thread: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,17038.0.html

[thelakelander]

I see you were confused enough that you thought I was talking about DVI? What does DVI have to do with extending the Skyway to tap into 220 Riverside and Riverside Park?  I didn't really engage in the discussion about what NYC did over a century ago because it has nothing to do with the central point of this thread......

Here is a link to today's article which visually highlights what I was trying to explain:

Understanding Transit in Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

New York also operates the Staten Island Railway, which runs primarily above grade.  However, none of this stuff has anything to do with or is productive to the topic of this thread. The last time I checked, the name of this article was "The Role Of Mass Transit In Brooklyn's Renaissance". I guess I should have included that it was intended to address Jacksonville's Brooklyn and not NYC's, which has nothing to do with opening a "no-frills" affordable Skyway station in Jacksonville's Brooklyn?  Nevertheless, if you want to learn more about the NYC Subway, here is a link where you can find the answers you seek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway

[thelakelander]

But I do think that we are at basically the same place that new york was at a hundred years ago:

http://pleasurephoto.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/mulberry-street-market-little-italy-new-york-city-1900/

New York City 1900 population: 3,437,202
New York City 1900 population density: 11,381/square mile (Manhattan was 84,091 residents/square mile)



Jacksonville 2011 population estimate: 827,908 
Jacksonville 2011 population density estimate: 1,100.1/square mile

Umm, okay.

To wit, pondering the establishment of a mass transit system that favors sustainable economics and redensification.

So after all of that, your basic point that relates to this thread is that you believe we need the Skyway to have an elevated station in Brooklyn instead of being at ground level because somehow an elevated station favors sustainable economics and redensification and ground level one doesn't?