DIA Chairman Donald Harris: Extend Skyway to Everbank Field?

[simms3]

(let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

The Omni and adjacent Bank building as well as the Hilton complex, are all three in Jacksonville DOWNTOWN because of the Skyway. If you'll search the record, you can find printed statements about the proximity to the Skyway being key in their decisions.

That may be the case, but man the developers were a little naive...the Skyway does next to nothing for all three of them now.  Also, as someone who works in development, even we'll say something to garner press and build support for something that may benefit us, but that's not the reason we are building what we are building.  For instance we touted the light rail along the Beltline as an impetus for Ponce City Market, and now that's not happening for a longg time, but the reason for our redevelopment effort is entirely different and is a little more macro (and more opportunity and capability to do it right) rather than a direct response to one potential stimulii (and weren't both the Hilton complex and Enterprise Center completed well before the Skyway was even under construction?).

There are three real estate plays as direct responses to transit that STILL depend on more maco economic conditions and basic fundamentals that I often hear of that are legitimate:

1) Office near a busy heavy rail or light rail station in a downtown where the downtown location is the first and foremost reason and the direct proximity to a busy station where commuters arrive is a secondary strong positive.  (the Skyway just doesn't fit in here because it's not whisking tens of thousands of commuters in to downtown like real systems, and simply extending to Riverside or San Marco won't achieve this either)

2) Multifamily near a light rail line or near a suburban heavy rail station (again multifamily is being built now based on other macro and capital markets reasons, and is being located near useful rail lines for reasons that play along with #1)

3) Urban mixed use campuses near a streetcar line (South Lake Union where Amazon is in Seattle comes to mind, so a streetcar is basically a connector to downtown and an easy way for people to maneuver the campus).  I think the Skyway is most like this, but we just did a horrible job making it useful and laying it out with no end result in mind.

I just don't think the Skyway literally *can* be an incentivizer because it can't really do anything.  Detroit's people mover does nothing and Seattle's is a $5 tourist ride to and from Westlake Center and the Space Needle/Chihouly Garden.

We've had a lot more development downtown since Enterprise Center and the Hilton, and none of it to my knowledge is due to the Skyway presence.

[thelakelander]

I think I agree with Simms on the last post.  For the skyway to truly reap the rewards of TOD, it needs to be seamlessly connected to a transit system that extends outside of downtown that also ties into a variety of destinations.  It really needs something that could feed it with thousands of riders.  We do have one peoplemover in this state that has a decent amount of TOD along its path.  It's Miami's Metromover.  However, that's a direct result of transit friendly land use policy and connectivity to Metrorail.  I suspect it will benefit even more from Metrorail's recent expansion to MIA and AAF's plans for the FEC corridor.

[simms3]

^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The Skyway is such a bad system that I don't believe a single more dime should be spent on it.  Rail needs to come directly from a residential area straight into the city, not to an outlying Skyway station.  And if DT and Southpoint/Gate are ever to be connected via rail, you better believe a Skyway transfer at King St will defeat the whole purpose.  Choice riders and commuters and business riders (aka airport to CBD or biz district to biz district) are point to point, not transfer/wait/transfer.  Only poor car-less people suffer through the endless transfers and the waiting because they have no choice, and a streetcar line from Riverside to downtown does not serve them or help them in any way, so if you're riders are looking for a quick and *convenient* way to work or into the city, don't piss them off and make it more difficult.

MetroMover is also such a different animal and is a loop system, which to me is more effective.  When I go to Miami on business and use the transit, I will occasionally use cab to Tri-Rail to the Metro (I fly into FTL), but it's easier for me to walk from the Metro to my hotel than to connect for a 3rd time on the MetroMover.  My company will expense the $100+ cab ride, so technically that's by far the easiest, but I am a transit junkie to a degree so I go out of my way to do it the hard way.

[scottwilson]

Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

I was  thinking in terms of a streetcar or trolley from central station towards the stadium.

[thelakelander]

^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The skyway comes roughly every 3 to 7 minutes.  I'm not sure where the 15 minute headway thing is coming from. It's also a 2.5 miles system.  I'd agree if it the headways were 15 minutes and the length of a trip was three blocks.  However, its much better to take the skyway across the river than walking those bridges.

[thelakelander]

Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

I was  thinking in terms of a streetcar or trolley from central station towards the stadium.

If it ran at street level on Bay Street, no cars could cross in a north/south direction between Central Station and the stadium.  That's not a viable solution.

[thelakelander]

MetroMover is also such a different animal and is a loop system, which to me is more effective.  When I go to Miami on business and use the transit, I will occasionally use cab to Tri-Rail to the Metro (I fly into FTL), but it's easier for me to walk from the Metro to my hotel than to connect for a 3rd time on the MetroMover.  My company will expense the $100+ cab ride, so technically that's by far the easiest, but I am a transit junkie to a degree so I go out of my way to do it the hard way.

A cab to Tri-Rail?  Why not take the peoplemover or a shuttle bus to MIC?  Also, Detroit's is a loop and it sucks big time when you want to go in the opposite direction.  Metromover's central core is a loop but the longer north and south legs are bi-directional lines.

[simms3]

I find it easiest to hop in a cab...they are there waiting and drop you off at the station.  If there's a peoplemover that is attached to Tri-Rail, I certainly never knew about it.  Regardless, to get from FTL to Miami using public transit involves a good bit of waiting, lots of transfers, lots of system changes, and you still end up walking the last leg.  At least in South FL you can justify that in your mind by saving $100+ on cab fare and time in thick South FL traffic.

In Jax, there's little to no justification for transit at this point, so it's about convincing people to ditch their cars.  Making it difficult by forcing people to transfer from one system to the Skyway is not the way to go about it, in my opinion.  Jacksonville's transit system should be over-simplified, not overly complicated.  Only big/dense cities can get away with complex, multi-component systems involving transfers.

[ProjectMaximus]

Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

I was  thinking in terms of a streetcar or trolley from central station towards the stadium.

If it ran at street level on Bay Street, no cars could cross in a north/south direction between Central Station and the stadium.  That's not a viable solution.

I think he's saying "extend" the line using streetcar or trolley, not monorail. And yes, that would be physically possible in that sense.

[ProjectMaximus]

^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The skyway comes roughly every 3 to 7 minutes.  I'm not sure where the 15 minute headway thing is coming from. It's also a 2.5 miles system.  I'd agree if it the headways were 15 minutes and the length of a trip was three blocks.  However, its much better to take the skyway across the river than walking those bridges.

The skyway in its current operation is probably much better than what simms remembers.

Simms, I think most of us agree that the skyway was a mistake and we would have been much better served going a different direction decades ago (or course it was federal dollars specifically for monorail that made it possible) But since we have it, I like to remind myself of what its strengths are: namely, getting us over the river, across the interstate and the train tracks into San Marco. Because we have it already, we should make use of its strengths.

[Jason]

More discussions on skyway expansion to the stadium...

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,16498.0.html

[simms3]

^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The skyway comes roughly every 3 to 7 minutes.  I'm not sure where the 15 minute headway thing is coming from. It's also a 2.5 miles system.  I'd agree if it the headways were 15 minutes and the length of a trip was three blocks.  However, its much better to take the skyway across the river than walking those bridges.

The skyway in its current operation is probably much better than what simms remembers.

Simms, I think most of us agree that the skyway was a mistake and we would have been much better served going a different direction decades ago (or course it was federal dollars specifically for monorail that made it possible) But since we have it, I like to remind myself of what its strengths are: namely, getting us over the river, across the interstate and the train tracks into San Marco. Because we have it already, we should make use of its strengths.

Yea I know it's better than what I'm giving it credit for, but it's not "good" or generally useful for most people.  I do have a question, though, for those with boots on the ground in Jax or those with this particular experience or observation.

Do workers on the Southbank use the Skyway in bulk to get across the river to eat lunch or go to bars after work?  I would think that would actually be the best use for the Skyway as of now, because you guys are right - walking those bridges in a suit in the summer or just in general is stupid unless you're out for that kind of stroll.

I still think a tiny city like Jax with no real need for extensive public transit other than as an economic stimulator and "showstopper" does not need to over-complicate the system.  Forcing transfers and forcing people to use the Skyway if they don't necessarily need to by "extending" Skyway lines from Prime Osborn, Union St and King St via streetcar to me does not sound like a good idea.  So many of the new streetcar lines in larger, more compact cities with legitimate rail systems are still "standalone" lines meant to connect neighborhoods, not to feed other lines, especially lines that aren't overly useful (like the Skyway).

I guess I'm saying "let's not get ahead of ourselves" here by building this complex thing and connecting systems.  A 2 line co-dependent system is only as strong as its weakest link, which in this case would be the Skyway.

[dougskiles]

I make 3 to 4 trips on the Skyway each week, usually between 9 am and 4 pm, from Kings Avenue Station to Hemming Plaza or Central Station.

Here are some of my observations:

- Less than 10% of the time, I am in a car alone.  About 20% of the time, all seats are taken (which means at least 4 to 6 people sitting).

- People are always getting on or off at Central Station or Hemming Plaza (I have never ridden it to FSCJ Station)

- At Kings Avenue Station, most of the riders are from bus transfers.  In the morning, there are usually people who walked from the hotel.

- Riverplace Station sees the least amount of activity.

- San Marco Station usually has one or two getting off to go to the hospital complex.

- I am beginning to see regular traffic of people getting on and off at Central Station going to the Everbank building (it is right across the street from the largest office building downtown).  I think we will see more of this as Everbank employees discover the benefits, and as the building fills up.

While we have an abundance of public parking spaces available Downtown, we have a limited supply of dedicated private parking that can be reserved for tenants.  As the occupancy rates climb, the Kings Avenue Garage will become more viable.

When the I-95 Overland Bridge project is complete, access to the Kings Avenue Garage will be much easier and we will likely see even more use by commuters.

However, the greatest increase in use for the system will come from extending it to an already walkable community, such as San Marco.  Transit systems are most utilized when they connect to walkable areas.  A system connecting to areas around Southside/Tinseltown/St Johns Town Center will never see the use that walkable areas of Riverside, San Marco and Springfield will.  If you have to get in your car once, you will probably to stay in the car until you get to your final destination.

Our first priority for investing should be in the places that people are most likely to use it.

[thelakelander]

Yea I know it's better than what I'm giving it credit for, but it's not "good" or generally useful for most people.  I do have a question, though, for those with boots on the ground in Jax or those with this particular experience or observation.

Do workers on the Southbank use the Skyway in bulk to get across the river to eat lunch or go to bars after work?  I would think that would actually be the best use for the Skyway as of now, because you guys are right - walking those bridges in a suit in the summer or just in general is stupid unless you're out for that kind of stroll.

I worked in the Southbank in 2009-2010.  My old firm then relocated to the Northbank, where I worked from Nov. 2010 until July 2012.  Not many people use the skyway to go to bars after work hours.  During my time on the Southbank, there was a stretch when the system shut down at 7pm, so using it after work meant walking back.  Occasionally, we'd use it at lunch if we were going to a Northbank restaurant but our rotation of lunch spots also including driving to Riverside, San Marco and Bono's on Beach Boulevard. 

After we moved to the Northbank, JTA eliminated the skyway's fares and started eliminating a couple of duplicate bus routes, causing ridership to significantly jump.  Since I've left the firm, I use the skyway more now than I ever did.  I use it to park on the Southbank for free on days I spend considerable time in downtown.  Personally, I'm one who rather spend my parking change and money on local downtown businesses and restaurants instead of COJ parking.

I still think a tiny city like Jax with no real need for extensive public transit other than as an economic stimulator and "showstopper" does not need to over-complicate the system.

Jacksonville is larger than several cities that have successfully implemented various forms of mass transit across the country.  We grew up on transit prior to expressway construction.  We're not too small for fixed mass transit that actually is cheaper to implement and cost us less in the long run, then continued roadway expansion.  However, you're right in that we don't need an extensive system covering the entire county.  That's something that should be expanded incrementally.

Forcing transfers and forcing people to use the Skyway if they don't necessarily need to by "extending" Skyway lines from Prime Osborn, Union St and King St via streetcar to me does not sound like a good idea.

To degree, every fixed transit system across the country is fed riders by various means of mobility.  I for one, do believe we should continue to eliminate duplicate bus routes along the skyway's corridor and force those riders to connect, via the skyway.  That saves us money and time because we can use the saved time to increase bus frequencies along the routes they already serve.

So many of the new streetcar lines in larger, more compact cities with legitimate rail systems are still "standalone" lines meant to connect neighborhoods, not to feed other lines, especially lines that aren't overly useful (like the Skyway).

All of them either feed or are fed by various means of mobility.  They don't work any way else.  In Salt Lake City's case, their new streetcar will feed riders and be fed by riders from the existing LRT and bus lines.  Norfolk's starter LRT is fed by various bus routes that penetrate areas of the city where the rail spine isn't available.  Even in Charlotte, if you want to get to the airport, you have to transfer from LRT to the Sprinter (BRT).  In the future, if you want to go north/south in that city, you'll have to switch from LRT to modern streetcar.  In no city of significant size can one corridor, mode of mobility, or system fit all urban landscapes and neighborhood types.  Jacksonville isn't any different.

I guess I'm saying "let's not get ahead of ourselves" here by building this complex thing and connecting systems.  A 2 line co-dependent system is only as strong as its weakest link, which in this case would be the Skyway.

As a skyway user, I see the value of the system and what it's place can be in a long term vision of this city developing a comprehensive connected mass transit network.  From my view, it's an asset we fail to utilize properly.  However, with that said, I do believe it's a waste to extend it to the stadium without resolving the larger issue, which is having something that ties it with areas and destinations outside of downtown.

[spuwho]

Any updates to any public transit system should be part of a regional plan. While it is inspiring to see someone in leadership speak out on a  difficult issue, action should be based on a plan. Plan, approve, build.