Elements of Urbanism: Cincinnati

[bigcraiginjax]

You make my old city look good!  Everyone should keep in mind that The Banks development took over 15 years to come together.  I was there for a Reds game earlier this month and the new additions are great.  Before the retail arrived, there was nothing to do before or after a ballgame.  Also the Underground Freedom Center is having its share of financial problems (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111218/NEWS01/312180027/Freedom-Center-could-close).
Like Jacksonville, many Hamilton County residents live and work away from Downtown, and don't want to be on the hook for downtown enhancements like the streetcar.  It would have been nice to ride when I was there to go from the University of Cincinnati (Uptown) down to games and events in downtown.  Any resident of Clifton will tell you the commute up and down Vine st. through OTR can be a little scary after dark.

[duvaldude08]

You make my old city look good!  Everyone should keep in mind that The Banks development took over 15 years to come together.  I was there for a Reds game earlier this month and the new additions are great.  Before the retail arrived, there was nothing to do before or after a ballgame.  Also the Underground Freedom Center is having its share of financial problems (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111218/NEWS01/312180027/Freedom-Center-could-close).
Like Jacksonville, many Hamilton County residents live and work away from Downtown, and don't want to be on the hook for downtown enhancements like the streetcar.  It would have been nice to ride when I was there to go from the University of Cincinnati (Uptown) down to games and events in downtown.  Any resident of Clifton will tell you the commute up and down Vine st. through OTR can be a little scary after dark.

I have noticed alot of Ohio Natives either relocate to Jax, or is trying to relocate to Jax. What do you think the attraction is? I have one friend who stays in Cincy and is trying to get down here, once who stays here and is from Cleveland, and have randomly meet several others from Ohio.

[bigcraiginjax]

You make my old city look good!  Everyone should keep in mind that The Banks development took over 15 years to come together.  I was there for a Reds game earlier this month and the new additions are great.  Before the retail arrived, there was nothing to do before or after a ballgame.  Also the Underground Freedom Center is having its share of financial problems (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111218/NEWS01/312180027/Freedom-Center-could-close).
Like Jacksonville, many Hamilton County residents live and work away from Downtown, and don't want to be on the hook for downtown enhancements like the streetcar.  It would have been nice to ride when I was there to go from the University of Cincinnati (Uptown) down to games and events in downtown.  Any resident of Clifton will tell you the commute up and down Vine st. through OTR can be a little scary after dark.

I have noticed alot of Ohio Natives either relocate to Jax, or is trying to relocate to Jax. What do you think the attraction is? I have one friend who stays in Cincy and is trying to get down here, once who stays here and is from Cleveland, and have randomly meet several others from Ohio.

There are a lot of similarities to Cincinnati and Jacksonville.  The river  and distinct neighborhoods come to mind.  Also Cincinnati is only 800 miles from Jax--driveable in one day for diehards, and easy to break up into two days if necessary (Asheville, NC is about halfway).  You still get a little taste of seasons here in North Florida, but no shoveling of snow and you actually get to see the sun in February.  Ohioans drive 12 hours to get to the ocean--to have it so close now spoils me.  Add in the 'no state income tax' incentive and it makes a lot of sense to Ohioans.  While I miss things like Graeter's Ice Cream (though it's now available at publix) the Reds and Skyline Chili, it would take a tremendous offer to make me want to go back to Ohio.

[vicupstate]

Ohio in the winter is a pretty sunless place, from my limited experience.

[peestandingup]

I have a very good friend who stays there.... And he hates it. He actually has been trying to move to Jacksonville for quite sometime. He stays outside the city because their crime is extremely bad. Not to mention that the economy is in the toliet up there/ He told me how nice their downtown was and that it fools people from the outside looking in, and thats theres really not much in Cincinatti. But I do want to visit one day though.

That's pretty much what I hear, as well.

I've heard the exact opposite, so I guess it depends on the type of environment you're comfortable with and the cultural circles one prefers.  I have a business partner who has lived/worked in Atlanta, Cincinnati and Indianapolis in recent years and the one he can't stand is Indianapolis.  It's not culturally diverse in the urban core areas found in Atlanta and Cincinnati.  According to him, outside of Indy's compact downtown and perhaps Broad Ripple, there's no decent districts like Mount Adams, UC, Clifton, Walnut Hills, etc. (Cincy's versions of Jax's Shops of Avondale, Five Points, San Marco Square, etc.)  He's counting down the days that he can get out of Indiana.

I personally think the entire area is kinda blah. I have a lot of experience with all of the larger cities around there, but while living in Lexington, Cincy was our closest "big city" for bar hopping, day trips or big concerts at Riverbend (which is an awesome venue BTW). But the town itself isn't anything special at all. There's little to no vibe or uniqueness, a lot of it is ugly IMO & there's not a lot of opportunities (not to mention their economy is kind of in the toilet, as is a lot of OH). Even though they technically have more going on than us downtown, I'd still pick Jax overall I think as our urban neighborhoods are better & there's more to do (with better weather obviously).

Now, Louisville or Nashville would be a different story.

[thelakelander]

What do you think about Columbus?  I'm planning to stop through there this weekend on my drive up to Detroit.  Other cities on my pending roadtrip include Charlotte, Knoxville and Chicago.

[bigcraiginjax]

What do you think about Columbus?  I'm planning to stop through there this weekend on my drive up to Detroit.  Other cities on my pending roadtrip include Charlotte, Knoxville and Chicago.

I didn't spend as much time in Columbus as Cincinnati, but I found Columbus to be much more vanilla and boring.  Also very flat.  A huge university surrounded by a typical midwestern city.  COSI is great for kids though.

[Ocklawaha]

Whatever Cincinnati is or isn't, THEY are doing something about it and we are not... IE: STREETCAR. This will jump start a connective-sustainable-walkable building boom. Meanwhile in Jacksonville, we have a moratorium on progress, and idiots in the city who think a new Mickey D's downtown or a 7-11 is a bold step forward.

TIME TO PULL YOUR HEAD OUT JACKSONVILLE, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE OZONE. 

Lake, try Dayton and the electric trolley bus system...

[simms3]

These pictures aren't peeking my interest to visit Cincy like other Elements of Urbanism threads...liked the OTR photo thread, but Cincy's DT looks pretty dead/bad, even with all the historic remnants.

[thelakelander]

Simms3, Cincinnati is definitely a city of neighborhoods.  The best places aren't downtown.  Here are some images from random neighborhoods outside of downtown, OTR and West End:

University of Cincinnati










Avondale








Mount Adams








Clifton

[thelakelander]

Lake, try Dayton and the electric trolley bus system...

I stopped there too.  Coming soon to an elements of urbanism thread near you.....

[thelakelander]

What do you think about Columbus?  I'm planning to stop through there this weekend on my drive up to Detroit.  Other cities on my pending roadtrip include Charlotte, Knoxville and Chicago.

I didn't spend as much time in Columbus as Cincinnati, but I found Columbus to be much more vanilla and boring.  Also very flat.  A huge university surrounded by a typical midwestern city.  COSI is great for kids though.

I passed through downtown Columbus yesterday and explored the area for two hours.  Maybe I caught it at the right time but I was very impressed with the amount of foot traffic.  It's a place I'm going to have to come back and spend more time in.  Here are a few random shots:

[simms3]

Bill Brinton would suffer a massive heart attack if this were allowed in Jacksonville.  Look how disgusting and ugly that corner looks with all those lively signs and markers.   Ewwww  I'm sure it's got to be one of the seediest corners in the city because it's lit up and activated.

I passed through downtown Columbus yesterday and explored the area for two hours.  Maybe I caught it at the right time but I was very impressed with the amount of foot traffic.  It's a place I'm going to have to come back and spend more time in.  Here are a few random shots:

[thelakelander]

Lol, I thought the same thing.  What stood out the most to me was this city has evidently figured out how to mix history and modern architecture within the same compact environment.  It's hard to see some of these buildings and their signs being approved in Jax.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, try Dayton and the electric trolley bus system...

I stopped there too.  Coming soon to an elements of urbanism thread near you.....

It will be interesting to compare the ridership data on the trolley lines as opposed to diesel routes. My money is on the trolley system. I'm looking forward to this article Lake, Thanks!

Now About Columbus, Cincinnati, Ohio and Indiana in general...

In case any of the Jurassic minded planners in Jacksonville wonder why our downtown doesn't look like some of these midwest cities, take a look at their Interurban map. Those that don't know what an interurban is/was think streetcar line that out grew it's city and spread across a region. Often with high speed (90+ mph) 'trains' which doubled as school bus, milk truck, mail delivery and news paper service as well as a deluxe passenger accommodation. Jacksonville was in the center of no less then a half dozen 'Interurban' plans, none of which ever happened... Maybe THAT is what they designed those streets in Avondale for??

Depot's day, 80 years later
Siblings recall Canal Winchester rail stop as it gets historical marker

By  Elizabeth Gibson
The Columbus Dispatch Saturday May 22, 2010 8:14 AM

Bill Boving, 87, and his sister, Dorothy Boving Hockman, 89, were among the last passengers on Scioto Valley Traction Line, which they rode from the Canal Winchester depot to Lancaster. They stand outside the restored depot beside a photo taken that day in 1930 in Lancaster.

Eighty years ago, George and Dorothy Boving came home from school and were told by their father to go straight to the depot.

"We didn't hesitate to do what our dad told us to do," Mr. Boving said yesterday. "We really just sat there on the train, but I think our dad kind of realized it was historic."

What their father realized - and they didn't - was that it was the last ride on the Scioto Valley Traction Line for the interurban, an electric passenger railroad that was the light-rail system of its time.

The seats were comfortable and the carriage wasn't noisy, Mr. Boving said.

Waiting at the end of the line in Lancaster was their mother and baby brother, and several hundred people who then saw off the car as it headed back toward Columbus.

They stepped off the train and posed with other passengers for a photo.

Yesterday, an enlarged copy of that picture was on display at the dedication of a historic marker at the Canal Winchester Interurban Depot.

In it, Dorothy, 10, is looking off to the side, holding 8-year-old George's hand.

Mr. Boving, now 87, and his sister, Dorothy Boving Hockman, 89, attended the ceremony at the depot in Canal Winchester.

Mr. Boving even donned a white cap, shorts and high socks similar to those he's wearing in the photo as a child.

The station opened in 1904, but the rise of the automobile eventually drove the interurban into obsolescence, rail historian Alex Campbell said.

When the last car traveled in 1930, Columbus' population, now more than 1 million people in the metropolitan area, had grown to a whopping 290,564 people.

The interurban, with cars that could top 60 mph, brought Columbus closer to outlying farm towns, Campbell said.

The Scioto track started Downtown, wound through German Village and out to Obetz. There, it spilt into two lines, with one bound for Lancaster and the other for Chillicothe.

Hockman said she remembers riding it to a little red schoolhouse every day in the first grade.

One rainy morning, she showed up at the station and the tall girl who normally pulled the handle to signal the car to stop for them wasn't there. She couldn't reach high enough, and the interurban passed by. Just as she began to cry, the train stopped and backed up.

Another girl had told the conductor that he had to go back for Dorothy.

When the interurban stopped running, the old Canal Winchester depot, behind 20 S. High St., was transformed into offices for a power company.

But the village bought the building in 2002, deciding to restore the depot to its original gray brick with a red tile roof and bright-white trim. Canal Winchester has spent $123,000 on the project, although some of that has come from donations and grants, Mayor Michael Ebert said.

"It's our intention to bring back some of the feel of a day gone by," he said.

Columbus Interurban Electric Railway Terminal, with streetcar tracks in the foreground, circa 1906. In spite of my Great Uncle Goodrich toying with vulcanization of rubber for automobiles, it's apparent that the curvilinear streets of Columbus weren't designed for the automobile either!

Columbus Interurbans - 1895-1939

        Columbus was a hub of interurban travel in the early twentieth century. A line to Westerville, built in 1895 was the first Columbus interurban.  Eight others soon followed. Most of the lines were gone by the early 1930's with only the Cincinnati & Lake Erie Railroad lasting until 1939.  The various companies were constantly going through reorganization, purchase, merger and name change. The list of the nine original companies, that served Columbus, is found here with the barest of histories to get a start in the Columbus' interurban story.

Ohio had more interurban mileage than any other state in the union except perhaps California. 

The Big Players
Columbus London & Springfield Railway- 1902-1939, Standard Gauge, 44 miles from Columbus to London, West Jefferson, and Springfield.  This line would be purchased several times evolving into the Indiana Columbus and Eastern Traction Company (1906), the Ohio  Electric (1907), the IC&ET again (1918) and finally the Cincinnati & Lake Erie Railroad 1929-1939.

Columbus Buckeye Lake and Newark Traction Co.- 1902-1929, Standard Gauge, 34 miles from Columbus to  Reynoldsburg, Kirkersville, Hebron and Newark with a branch from Hebron to Buckeye Lake.  In 1904 the Columbus, Newark & Zanesville was built from Newark-Zanesville, 30 miles. It acquired the CBL&N in 1906.  It became part of the Ohio Electric in 1907 and back to CN&Z ownership in 1918.

Columbus Delaware & Marion Railway- 1903-1933, Standard Gauge, 50 miles long from Columbus to Worthington, Flint, Lewis Center, Stratford, Delaware, Radnor, Prospect, Owens, Marion and through its subsidiary Bucyrus.

Scioto Valley Traction Company- 1904-1930, Standard Gauge - third rail, 47 miles long from Columbus to Valley Crossing, Obetz Junction, Lockbourne, Circleville, and Chillicothe with a 24 mile branch from Obetz Junction to Groveport, Canal Winchester, and Lancaster.

The Small Players:

Columbus Grove City and Southwestern- 1898-1922, Standard Gauge, 15 miles from Columbus to Grove City and Orient.    The line would become part of the Indiana Columbus and Eastern Traction Company (1906), the Ohio Electric(1907), the IC&ET again (1918).

Columbus Urbana & Western Railway- 1903-1925, Standard Gauge, 9 miles long from Columbus to Fishinger's Bridge.
Lines Purchased by the Columbus Streetcar Company

Columbus Central Street Railway- 1895-1900 [estimated] when the line was sold to the Columbus Railway & Light Co.  Wide gauge (5' 2"), about 11 miles long from Columbus to Minerva Park and Westerville. Service to Westerville was discontinued in 1929.

Columbus New Albany and Johnstown Traction Company- 1901-1923 when it was sold to the Columbus Railway Power & Light Co.  Wide gage (5' 2"), 6 miles long from Columbus to Sheppards, Ralston Steel Car Co. and Gahanna.  Service to Gahanna was discontinued 1928.

A Privately Owned Line
Ohio & Southern Traction Company- 1907-1929, Standard Gauge, 6.8 miles from Columbus to the Hartman Stock Farm and Shadeville.  Privately owned by Dr. Samuel B. Hartman.