Wal-Mart expanding in Jax??

[peestandingup]

Many people (esp these days) are caught in a vicious cycle, where they pretty much HAVE to shop at places like Wal-Mart just to get by, even if they hate it. Since dollar value/inflation is out of control, people are working more for less, skyrocketing healthcare, the housing mess, people being underemployed (or just plain out of work), overall wealth reduction of the middle class, and about a million other things pulling at them, it's a chain reaction that leads us to where we are today. Of course, it didn't used to be like this, but it is now. Wal-Mart (and other huge big box corp stores) are in the position to act as sort of vultures in this regard, plopping down stores where others simply cannot in the current environment & reaping the benefits.

Yes, its cheap goods. And yes, some people will be able to afford those Chinese-made Xmas presents because they're there. But the cheap goods come at a price in other much more damaging ways & moves us all further down the rabbit hole. One that's going to be absolute hell to crawl back out of, if we ever do.

All of these things are connected. So I do not blame the people who shop there (esp the ones who do it out of necessity) & turn my nose up at them. Growing up my family was poor once for a whole, so I know the feeling. Shit happens. But it was never the "stripping of wealth & ownership" that is going on today. Wal-Mart is just a link in that whole chain that needs repaired. But how do we repair it? Is it even something that can be fixed at this point?? I don't see good things in our future, unless you're already pretty wealthy.

[Bill Hoff]

How about the old Quality Food site at 8th & Hubbard?

(probably very wishful thinking) 

[KenFSU]

Great post Purplebike!

Your JFK quote is one of my favorites of all time

- Which practices are obviously up for debate, do you think? What is your position on those issues

Walmart's employment practices, specifically their perceived low wages and poor benefits, seem to be the most popular talking point. My overall position is that Walmart has a responsibility to both their employees and their shareholders. Their employees aren't going to be able to afford to live a lavish lifestyle, but that's the reality of unskilled labor. If you could afford a three bedroom house and an iPhone by stocking paper towels, there would be no incentive to improve yourself.

Even though average pay for non-salaried workers is less than $9 an hour, it's a dependable paycheck for 300 people per store that wouldn't necessarily be there otherwise. If minimum wage isn't enough for people to get by, it's truly sad, but that is a separate, much larger poverty issue, not a WalMart issue.

A point people also fail to grasp is that job stability is every bit the job benefit as vacation days, life insurance, etc. There's increased demand for jobs that offer security, thus WalMart can lower the salaries they offer.

It's easy for Amy Avondale to knock a big box in the suburbs, but for Alan Arlington, it could be the difference between his kids getting Christmas presents or a family vacation in the summer.

Alan Arlington may benefit in the short term, by being able to provide his kids Christmas presents, or a family vacation. But how might he be burdened, in the long run, as a consequence of more and more Walmarts entering the community?

How do big box retailers affect diverse job prospects in local communities? If Al Arlington's kids don't want to work at Walmart when they get older, what other prospects will they have? Others, to be sure, but could some of those prospects be undermined by more and more big box retailers moving in?

Al Arlington's kids have the world at their fingertips. Some of the more important men in our city's history came from nothing. Wayne Weaver barely finished high school. Shad Khan started at the very bottom. Jake Godbold too. Nobody forced them into a lifelong career at Woolworths. If you work hard to better yourself and develop marketable skills, you can do anything you set your mind to.

As far as long term burdens, those are impossible to quantify, and exist with the no-build option as well.

I'm a huge fan of government getting out of the way and allowing the free market to run its course, only interfering when consumers are being hurt by monopolistic practices or collusion. We're a democracy, and people are free to vote with their wallets. If they want big boxes, Main Street may suffer. And if they want Main Street, the big boxes may move on to the next town. But let's not pretend WalMart killed Main Street. Increased consumer options via the good old fashioned automobile did. Before the big boxes were the strip malls. And then the indoor shopping malls. And now the outdoor shopping malls.

I hate the idea of either government or citizen groups feeling they have the right or authority to protect communities from more choice. It's patronizing. In the same way, I am absolutely against any government incentives or subsidies that help WalMart enter a community.

Consider Don Downtown, who runs a long standing family business downtown. If Walmart moves in, how will Don's ability to buy Christmas presents for his kids, and go on family vacations, be affected?

Assuming WalMart squeezed its way into the core, Don Downtown would have to roll up his sleeves and work even harder to keep his existing business and earn new customers. Don's family business may have been the only game in town for the last 80 years. When that happens, Don may get complacement and stop looking for ways to improve his shop, utilize new technology, and brainstorm for ways that he could cut costs and pass some of that savings down to his customers. Increased competition would force Don Downtown to bring his A-game every day. If Don's 1,000 loyal customers decide that Walmart gives them better value or service for their money, it sucks for Don and his family and it may be considered a cultural loss by those that care (but weren't numerous enough to keep Don financially afloat), but it's obviously a net economic gain for society when you factor in whatever added value those 1,000 customers believe they got from WalMart.

Don Downtown could either find a way to differentiate himself, or if all else fails, he could probably get a job at Walmart. A Walmart wouldn't be nostalgic and romantic as Don's old shop, but the people would have spoken with their dollars. Don's well being isn't more important than anyone else's, and "because he's been there a long time" doesn't mean he's providing a service worthy of the asking price.

Should Walmart expand in Jax? Either it should, or it should not. I think both positions can be reasonably argued.

Buy its very nature, the act of shopping is a mutually beneficial exercise for both the shopper and the store, otherwise neither would have the incentive to be there. Walmart is free to expand to the point where customers stop spending the money necessary for the store to be feasible. Eventually, the market will tell Walmart when it's time to stop expanding. Look at what happened with Starbucks. They expanded beyond customer demand, and ended up getting a nice slap in the face by the invisible hand via hundreds of store closings. Until then, who's place is it to say Walmart can't open a store wherever they want as long as it is done legally? Certainly isn't mine. If Walmart is expanding, it means there's probably unfilled local demand.

In my experience, observing this issue being argued in my ethics classes, it usually boils down to two reasonable values:

Those that argue Walmart should come in tend to base their position on valuing the short term benefits, more specifically, saving money.

Those that argue Walmart should not come in tend to base their position on valuing the longer term benefits, more specifically, valuing diversity / endurance of community resources.

Both values are good values. Ultimately, we have to decide what is more important. Saving money in the short term, or saving community in the long term.

Your thoughts?

Cost saving could also be long-term. Do all of your grocery shopping at WalMart, put the savings in an interest bearing account, and by the time your kid is 18, you could probably damn near put him through college. You could retire earlier. You could take more vacations. You could build a pool.

You also need to take into account the opportunity cost of a one-stop shopping center, versus the extra half tank of gas and hours spent going to five different places on a Sunday (grocery store for food, department store of a pair of mittens, photo store to get your pictures developed, video game store to buy that new XBox shooter, barber shop to get your hair cut, pharmacy to get your prescription).

Everybody has their own way of factoring their quality of life equation. To some people, it's totally worth foregoing the small speciality shops, saving the time and money, and spending the rest of their day reading that novel they've been meaning to finish, going to the beach, or taking in a movie with their kids. Other people put more value in the cultural experience of the small retailers (which are, more and more, becoming mini big boxes of their own -- Walgreens, Supercuts, Gamestop, Publix, Panera).

I agree that both the decision to shop at Walmart and the decision not to shop at Walmart are perfectly rational.

Not my place at all to dictate which way people lean.

Everyone will make their own choices, and those aggregate choices will, for better or worse, shape the 21st century society that the majority has chosen.

We can either accept it, or get dragged along kicking and screaming

[Tacachale]

There have been several studies of Walmart's effect on communities in the last several years. One well known study, "The effects of Wal-Mart on local labor markets" by David Neumark, Junfu Zhang, and Stephen Ciccarella, published in The Journal of Urban Economics in 2008, found that Walmart openings typically put other retail stores out of business and ultimately reduce overall employment in the county, and additionally lead to declines in county level retail earnings. However, other researchers have disputed these finding. For example, in "Wal-Mart and Small Business: Boon or Bane?" (The Review of Regional Studies, 2009) Michael Hicks found no meaningful impacts of Walmarts on small businesses overall. As far as I can tell there's no consensus one way or the other yet, and more work needs to be done.

At any rate, before you consider whether Wal-Mart is good or bad you need to consider the full picture.

[thelakelander]

How is a Walmart Neighborhood Market any different from a Publix, Winn-Dixie, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods opening in town?  A 200,000 square foot supercenter is a different animal from a Food Lion sized grocery store.  It will be some extra competition for our +28,000 to 60,000 square feet grocery stores but won't have the same impact as a supercenter setting up shop.

[RexMontana]

Jesus, God in Heaven! ANOTHER Walmart? Are you freaking kidding me?!?!?! The world would be a far better place if ALL the Walmarts were closed. I specifically choose NOT to shop at Walmart in favor of local stores and shops because they need our business. It's no wonder that a number of stores have closed in recent years due to the economy and in a large  part because of Walmart monopolizing on just about EVERYTHING! Hair cuts, banking needs, glasses, nails, pictures...anything that they can sell, they will in an effort to take money from other local stores! Do your home town a HUGE favor and stop shopping at Walmart. SUPPORT LOCAL BUSINESSES!!!

[Purplebike]

@ KenFSU-

Thank you so much for answering my questions. I really respect the time and thought you put into your answers. And you didn't put words into my mouth once! Yay! I hate it when people do that, specifically, when they say things like, "So are you saying ___ ?!" (Insert straw man, lol). You may have noticed I tend to pop in here and there in these forums, ask a couple questions, and then that's all. This time will be no exception. I promise it's not because I'm afraid of where the discussion might go. I have no problem conceding to a well argued point. These forum discussions are huge time suckers, when taken beyond the first exchange. Even right now, I should be grading papers!

If I ever run into you (not that I would know it if I did, I don't know who any of you are!), don't hesitate to take this conversation back up. Especially if you're this calm, methodical, and fair in person. SO much fun when everyone in a discussion is that way--when they're in it to learn, not win. Good times!

[civil42806]

Jesus, God in Heaven! ANOTHER Walmart? Are you freaking kidding me?!?!?! The world would be a far better place if ALL the Walmarts were closed. I specifically choose NOT to shop at Walmart in favor of local stores and shops because they need our business. It's no wonder that a number of stores have closed in recent years due to the economy and in a large  part because of Walmart monopolizing on just about EVERYTHING! Hair cuts, banking needs, glasses, nails, pictures...anything that they can sell, they will in an effort to take money from other local stores! Do your home town a HUGE favor and stop shopping at Walmart. SUPPORT LOCAL BUSINESSES!!!

How is a Walmart Neighborhood Market any different from a Publix, Winn-Dixie, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods opening in town?  A 200,000 square foot supercenter is a different animal from a Food Lion sized grocery store.  It will be some extra competition for our +28,000 to 60,000 square feet grocery stores but won't have the same impact as a supercenter setting up shop.

Out here in Mobile, there are quite a few Neighborhood Markets.  They are much smaller than the traditional wal-mart, tend to be bare bone operations.  Think how sav-a-lot varies from a full Winn Dixie.  The neighborhood markets are strictly grocery stores, at least they are out here.

[thelakelander]

^They are in Central Florida as well.  I'm trying to figure out why people view Neighborhood Markets as being different from the regular Publix or Winn-Dixie?

[fsujax]

^^beacuse it has the Wal-Mart name attached to it! plain and simple. If it were a urban Target market, probably not that much of a big deal.

[tufsu1]

^^beacuse it has the Wal-Mart name attached to it! plain and simple. If it were a urban Target market, probably not that much of a big deal.

that's because it would be good

[copperfiend]

However, I suspect all of these will be in the burbs.

I agree. I think the old Winn-Dixie at Baymeadows/9A is probably a potential spot. Same with the old Food Lion on Wells Road near Queens Harbor.

I definitely think these will be the places they end up as well. 

Although the Wells Rd. Food Lion is soon to open as a Rowe's Fresh For Less Market.

I didn't realize that but rarely am in the area of town anymore. The last time I went to that Food Lion, it was pretty terrible.

[Tacachale]

Lake, from what I've read, the difference is scale. Wal-Mart is big box turned up to 11. They have a wider variety, lower prices, and more locations even compared to other big box stores, let alone to supermarkets. And they've been at it longer. The reports I've read do look into the different models of Wal-Mart. But conceivably the same issues would be present with any big-box store.

At any rate, speaking to my preference, I wouldn't be any more excited about a Target than a Wal-Mart. What's to be excited about? There are hundreds of these places all over the country already.

[thelakelander]

I can see the discussion of scale in terms of a supercenter but we're talking about a non-big box grocery store (that happens to be owned by Walmart) that is similar in scale to a typical Publix, a chain many want the city to give incentives to get them downtown. 

[Tacachale]

^If they follow their general tradition of more and cheaper items, I can see how it could be different than other supermarket chains. Different companies run things differently as well. Publix is regional and has a reputation for quality and being a good employer. Is that true of Wal-Mart?