When did it all go wrong?

[cityimrov]

One of the biggest issues this town has is the pull that the churches have.  That is not something that you find as prevalent in your major Metropolitans, certainly not as in your face as it is here.  I don’t care what church someone goes to.   If this town really wants to GROW it needs to look more at what is good for the town not the church coffers.  While church goers may be voters I think that it might be found that there are more people who do not go to church than do, and they also may vote. 
There are more people who claim Christianity than not.  Those of us that are not are in the minority, I am aware of that.  BUT all Christians do not go to church and all Christians are not the same denomination going to the same church.  I think that perhaps one denomination having as strong an influence as it does on local politics is a major issue for Jacksonville.  I don’t see that changing any time soon.  The city’s masses just seem too happy the retardation of its maturation.

For the most part, churches and religious centers have proven to be a boom to some part of mankind.  Churches are usually strong producers of culture and business.  Yes, they can have some very bad sides but at the same time, they've produce amazing things.  Look at Rome, Salt Lake City, or even Tel Aviv as strong examples of this. 

Now Jacksonville churches, I'm not really sure what they have produced over the years.  The biggest one in Jacksonville are the Baptists.  The large one in downtown have ok buildings.  The Florida Baptist Convention Headquarters is Jacksonville so they must have some strong influence here.  I'm not sure but I think Baptist Medical Center may have been created by them.  The Southern Baptist Convention is not located in Jacksonville but in Augusta, GA (which coincidentally looks like a smaller clone of Jacksonville).   I don't know the history of the churches here.  Can anyone fill in the blanks? 

We have a high school in Jacksonville called "Nathan Bedford Forrest".  Did Jacksonville's decline happen sometime around the naming of this school or was it before then? 

[simms3]

I think MetroJacksonville has explicitly proven and pointed to the decline as happening in 1948 when Haydon Burns was elected mayor of Jacksonville.

It was around that time that bridges to nowhere were built, expressways were built through stable minority neighborhoods and even a few white neighborhoods, the tollway authority was created and built tolls to get to downtown on the bridges, the waterfront was destroyed and filled in for surface parking, elevated sidewalks/skyways were built, "master plans" were created, etc etc etc.

Jacksonville as we know it today began its start then.

I do think we had a hold on the finance/insurance industry through the early 1990s and of course Charter was pretty big time until it crashed - literally.  The only thing the city has really held onto has been its logistics network and companies, but that could always be better than it is (CSX relocating here was a positive move, but in terms of employment had a net neutral effect).

If only the city had a dominating industry or theme that could give it some sort of identity that would shield it from the negative press that associates the city with Baptists and intolerance and rednecks and lack of nightlife, etc.

[Tacachale]

^I wouldn't regard that as "proven". (Downtown) Jacksonville experienced a decline under Burns (who was elected in 1949, not 1948), but his election and many of his policies coincided with national trends that saw mass suburbanization and decentralization. Not to mention the booming growth across Florida that led other areas to surpass Jacksonville. It can't all be pinned on him.

Where Jacksonville, and all other postwar growth cities, differ from older cities is that we had a lot less infrastructure in place at the time we began to take our current form. In 1948 there was no Arlington or Southside as we know it; Orange Park, Mandarin, and the Beaches were all independent, isolated communities, not bedroom suburbs. As a result, proportionately much more of Jacksonville, as well as cities like Miami, Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, and Phoenix, exists in autocentric suburbs than in the "city part of the city". This separates us from cities as diverse as Boston, Charleston, and St. Louis who experienced their largest growth while other forms of living were still prevalent.

At the same time, in 1948 Jacksonville also had no University, no symphony, no real art museum, etc., so the city progressed on other fronts even as downtown declined.

[Ocklawaha]

One of the biggest issues this town has is the pull that the churches have.  That is not something that you find as prevalent in your major Metropolitans, certainly not as in your face as it is here.  I don’t care what church someone goes to.   If this town really wants to GROW it needs to look more at what is good for the town not the church coffers.  While church goers may be voters I think that it might be found that there are more people who do not go to church than do, and they also may vote. 
There are more people who claim Christianity than not.  Those of us that are not are in the minority, I am aware of that.  BUT all Christians do not go to church and all Christians are not the same denomination going to the same church.  I think that perhaps one denomination having as strong an influence as it does on local politics is a major issue for Jacksonville.  I don’t see that changing any time soon.  The city’s masses just seem too happy the retardation of its maturation.

One might likewise say that our city suffers from too many Masonic lodges, Garden or Lion's Clubs. Churches are simply a body of believers which are as diverse as the city itself. Churches of many different faiths make up part of a rich fabric of our society. To think that churches, or religion, or too many telephone booths hold the city back is a bogus argument.

The collection of churches, like service clubs everywhere, are meeting places for singles, and families looking for anything from a cultural experience to an elevating spiritual journey. In the process the churches more then any other group in our society, feed the poor, doctor the sick, and assist in hundreds of ways not generally advertised to the public.

An institution like the local Baptist and Catholic faiths spend MILLIONS locally on everything from pots and pans, to furniture, food, and accouterments of study and hospitality. Churches also have a huge effect on tourism, believe it or not hardly a week goes by that a dozen or so groups or individuals are not at a hotel somewhere in North Florida because of one of our churches.

One of the most progressive modern places of similar size is Salt Lake City. They hosted the Olympics, built a light-rail system, built a commuter rail system, and are now engaged in adding streetcar to their urban mix. Salt Lake City is nothing if not 100 x more conservative and churched then Jacksonville and they are leaving us in their dust.

Perhaps we should be asking how SLC got the most far right religious group in the country to support the most progressive liberal ideas?

BTW, The SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION is not HQ in Augusta, it's in Nashville, and believe it or not, if you order a Bible from the 800 number posted by the Mormons in SLC, chances are it will printed on the Southern Baptist press. It's something known as commerce!

[Ocklawaha]

Here are some of the worst decisions we've made.

If you REALLY want to get at the root of our city's fall from the top, look no further then our history. In 1917, conservative Democrat John W. Martin was elected mayor on the platform of taming the city's movie industry. By that time, southern California was emerging as the major movie production center, thanks in large part to the move of film pioneers like William Selig and D.W. Griffith to the area. These factors quickly sealed the demise of Jacksonville as a major film destination. By the end of the 1920's we had chased the studio's away, studios that have convinced the entire world that Los Angeles is the center of the universe... it could have been us. The huge urban errors were then compounded when we junked a true urban fixed rail transit system for a fleet of tiny, hot, buses. Nobody seemed to notice that new businesses didn't spring up along bus routes, as the city had little infrastructure investment in them. Top that off with chasing not only Walt Disney away, but running over a Busch Gardens opportunity in the same manner. Another huge hit was Peyton's refusing to allow the Navy back in Cecil Field. 30,000 guaranteed jobs were thrown away in the hope that a battery plant and tire warehouse will figure out how to launch their products into space... Um? Amazing!

[Timkin]

Um.... Sickening

[Tacachale]

Ock, you've mentioned several times recently that the city somehow chased Walt Disney away from building Disney World here. That didn't happen. I doubt it happened with Busch Gardens either.

Not that Disney World is really something to envy to begin with.

[KenFSU]

If we are to accept the fact that we “are” different than other cities of similar size, the difference being that we find it difficult to achieve the kind of stature we might imagine desirable; a stature which “they” are said to have achieved or are achieving, then we might wonder if there is “one” ingredient in our soup responsible for the difference.

My best guess would be lack of a clearly defined long-term vision for the city, carried over from one administration to the next.

Despite constant political chatter about Jacksonville's unfulfilled potential, I'm still not quite sure I've ever seen a truly great master plan detailing a) what the city's long term goals are and b) how to get there.

[Tacachale]

Ock, you've mentioned several times recently that the city somehow chased Walt Disney away from building Disney World here. That didn't happen. I doubt it happened with Busch Gardens either.

Not that Disney World is really something to envy to begin with.

According to Ball's long time secretary it did happen.  According to Raymond Mason, his biographical apologist and booster, it didn't.

I'd go with the secretary.

PS.  It wasn't "The City" per se, but rather Ed Ball, who ran the city.

Disney wanted to purchase significant acreage from Ball that had been laid waste by the St. Joe's Paper Company.  Ball refused in such a way that Disney went south.

Actually, it's not clear that Ball's secretary really did say that. She isn't mentioned in most of the versions that have circulated since the the 1990s. A 2007 Times-Union article that mentions her doesn't quote her directly.

At any rate, the story doesn't claim that Disney was looking in Jacksonville or that Bell spoke for Jacksonville. According to the various versions, for instance this one, Disney tried to meet Ball to look into Panhandle, where St. Joe had most of their land. Supposedly Ball told him "I don't do business with carnival people" and refused to see him, so the Panhandle missed a chance (or dodged a bullet) to have Disney World built there.

Regardless of this little story, it's likely that Disney did check out both the Panhandle and the Jacksonville area, but if he did they would have been only some of the very many locations around the state (and the country) he investigated and rejected before deciding on the Reedy Creek site.

Perhaps this should be its own thread.

[fsujax]

Read Married to the Mouse, that will give a nice historical overview of Disney and the Central Florida decision.

[Tacachale]

Ock, you've mentioned several times recently that the city somehow chased Walt Disney away from building Disney World here. That didn't happen. I doubt it happened with Busch Gardens either.

Not that Disney World is really something to envy to begin with.

According to Ball's long time secretary it did happen.  According to Raymond Mason, his biographical apologist and booster, it didn't.

I'd go with the secretary.

PS.  It wasn't "The City" per se, but rather Ed Ball, who ran the city.

Disney wanted to purchase significant acreage from Ball that had been laid waste by the St. Joe's Paper Company.  Ball refused in such a way that Disney went south.

Actually, it's not clear that Ball's secretary really did say that. She isn't mentioned in most of the versions that have circulated since the the 1990s. A 2007 Times-Union article that mentions her doesn't quote her directly.

At any rate, the story doesn't claim that Disney was looking in Jacksonville or that Bell spoke for Jacksonville. According to the various versions, for instance this one, Disney tried to meet Ball to look into Panhandle, where St. Joe had most of their land. Supposedly Ball told him "I don't do business with carnival people" and refused to see him, so the Panhandle missed a chance (or dodged a bullet) to have Disney World built there.

Regardless of this little story, it's likely that Disney did check out both the Panhandle and the Jacksonville area, but if he did they would have been only some of the very many locations around the state (and the country) he investigated and rejected before deciding on the Reedy Creek site.

Perhaps this should be its own thread.

Orlando was a tiny citrus town before disney opened up miles away from the city.  Im not sure anyone would challenge the idea that Orlando became a city based on the economic growth of Disney.

The land was a bit more towards the west and north of Jacksonville, but with the rail connections of the time, and the highway array, Jacksonville would have been the beneficiary of the establishment of Disney in North Florida.

According to the book Green Empire: The St. Joe Company and the Remaking of Florida's Panhandle by Kathryn Ziewitz and June Wiaz, the land in question may have been Wakulla Springs, which is near Tallahassee. That wouldn't have done much for Jacksonville. And that's assuming the Ball story is true (the authors call it simply "company lore") and that Disney wouldn't have ultimately rejected it for some other reason, as he did with several much more serious sites before he settled on Reedy Creek.

[cityimrov]

Ock, you've mentioned several times recently that the city somehow chased Walt Disney away from building Disney World here. That didn't happen. I doubt it happened with Busch Gardens either.

Not that Disney World is really something to envy to begin with.

According to Ball's long time secretary it did happen.  According to Raymond Mason, his biographical apologist and booster, it didn't.

I'd go with the secretary.

PS.  It wasn't "The City" per se, but rather Ed Ball, who ran the city.

Disney wanted to purchase significant acreage from Ball that had been laid waste by the St. Joe's Paper Company.  Ball refused in such a way that Disney went south.

Actually, it's not clear that Ball's secretary really did say that. She isn't mentioned in most of the versions that have circulated since the the 1990s. A 2007 Times-Union article that mentions her doesn't quote her directly.

At any rate, the story doesn't claim that Disney was looking in Jacksonville or that Bell spoke for Jacksonville. According to the various versions, for instance this one, Disney tried to meet Ball to look into Panhandle, where St. Joe had most of their land. Supposedly Ball told him "I don't do business with carnival people" and refused to see him, so the Panhandle missed a chance (or dodged a bullet) to have Disney World built there.

Regardless of this little story, it's likely that Disney did check out both the Panhandle and the Jacksonville area, but if he did they would have been only some of the very many locations around the state (and the country) he investigated and rejected before deciding on the Reedy Creek site.

Perhaps this should be its own thread.

Orlando was a tiny citrus town before disney opened up miles away from the city.  Im not sure anyone would challenge the idea that Orlando became a city based on the economic growth of Disney.

The land was a bit more towards the west and north of Jacksonville, but with the rail connections of the time, and the highway array, Jacksonville would have been the beneficiary of the establishment of Disney in North Florida.

How much power did this Ed Ball guy have back then?  This looks like strike one in terms of our private leadership failing.  While Disney may or may have not chosen the Jacksonville area to build Disney World, Jacksonville could have had a much better relationship that Disney wanted to build something here.  Even a small Disney exhibit on I-95 to prep everyone before they reach Disney World.   It would have been a boom to Jacksonville's non-existent tourist industry. 

Despite constant political chatter about Jacksonville's unfulfilled potential, I'm still not quite sure I've ever seen a truly great master plan detailing a) what the city's long term goals are and b) how to get there.

Giant master plans are usually a bad idea.  It causes people  to stick with them even when they become obsolete.  Orlando didn't know what Disney was.  I'm betting half of the most successful areas in our world had no master plan to go on.  It just requires some risk and a lot of uncertainty. 

[carpnter]

Master plans are actually a good idea, the problem is when people stick to them and fail to adapt them as the criteria they were originally based on changes.  Any master plan should be reviewed regularly and modified to accommodate current conditions or even new goals. 
Failing to plan is planning to fail.   

[blizz01]

Orlando didn't know what Disney was.  I'm betting half of the most successful areas in our world had no master plan to go on.  It just requires some risk and a lot of uncertainty. 

They knew what they were getting into - One of the most sucessful & recognizable brands in history & a 15 year head start / test environment in Disneyland, CA.

[simms3]

Master plans tied to goals and direction are usually a good thing.  All the best universities have master plans that are updated every 5-10 years.  Many if not most of the best neighborhoods in the country have master plans updated on a similar basis.  Cities do, too.  I think the key is to tie a plan to goals rather than have an isolated floating plan based on disconnected ideas...and then obviously the next step would be implementation.  I think where Jacksonville has failed is both in tying plans to specific short and long term goals that transcend time periods and very clearly the city has failed to implement anything practical in a very long time.

In my opinion the best planning in NE FL takes place at UNF.  I suggest going over its master plans and seeing what they have done over the decades to get to where they are.