Landing Vacancy Rate

[KenFSU]

Thanks guys.

With the amount of kids that I normally see at the Landing, especially on weekends, it seems like an arcade would be a great idea.

And I miss Johnny Rockets.

Don't think I've seen one within 100 miles of Jacksonville.

[Tacachale]

Where in the Landing were Johnny Rockets and the old arcade?

If the arcade in question was the Ostrich Landing (never quite understood the name), it was upstairs where Maverick's is (and Club Paris was). As a middle schooler, it was awesome. It had this Mark Twain looking riverboat shooting game.

Yep, that's it. It may have had a different name originally, but I don't recall. That place was a lot of fun.

Sadly video arcades have gone the way of Blockbuster and the buggy whip store except in Japan. I think a good percentage of folks born between about 1960 and 1990 spent many a quarter in the old salón de maquinitas.

[If_I_Loved_you]

Waterside in Norfolk Va. and the Jacksonville Landing are in the same trouble? And here is a study done on Waterside we all should take a look at? http://www.norfolk.gov/city_hall/meetings/2012/04-10-12/WatersideStudy_Huntley.pdf

[Wacca Pilatka]

Waterside in Norfolk Va. and the Jacksonville Landing are in the same trouble? And here is a study done on Waterside we all should take a look at? http://www.norfolk.gov/city_hall/meetings/2012/04-10-12/WatersideStudy_Huntley.pdf

I live in the Norfolk area and Waterside is in much worse trouble than the Landing.  It's nearly vacant, despite being adjacent to a well-used park, cruise terminal, and museum and the fact that Norfolk's downtown area in general has been on an upward trend for many years now. 

It shifted over time, with some success, from mostly a retail center to a restaurant/entertainment venue, and was holding its own in that area until a couple of the larger and more unique dining/entertainment options shut down due to (I think) liquor license violations and a couple of high-profile brawls and criminal incidents.  Now it's down to Outback, Hooters, Joe's Crab Shack and not much else.  The retail is nearly vacant, as are several large restaurant/club spaces, and the food court is bleaker than the Landing's.

Waterside has several advantages over the Landing, including not turning its back on the rest of downtown, being directly adjacent to a hotel, and having its own parking garage (connected to it by footbridge).  Its main disadvantages seem to be that the rest of downtown Norfolk is pretty vibrant, making it a less obvious focal point; and that Waterside Drive is a very wide road that's essentially at the foot of an expressway, cutting it off from the non-waterfront remainder of downtown (save for the footbridge).  Imagine if Independent Drive were State and Union Streets and you get the picture.

[Wacca Pilatka]

With the amount of kids that I normally see at the Landing, especially on weekends, it seems like an arcade would be a great idea.

On similar lines, I'd love to see a Jillian's/Dave & Buster's type venue at the Landing.  Norfolk had a Jillian's at Waterside until a couple of years ago.

[Dapperdan]

With the amount of kids that I normally see at the Landing, especially on weekends, it seems like an arcade would be a great idea.

On similar lines, I'd love to see a Jillian's/Dave & Buster's type venue at the Landing.  Norfolk had a Jillian's at Waterside until a couple of years ago.

Dave and Busters would be perfect for that former Fuddrucker's Space.

[If_I_Loved_you]

Waterside in Norfolk Va. and the Jacksonville Landing are in the same trouble? And here is a study done on Waterside we all should take a look at? http://www.norfolk.gov/city_hall/meetings/2012/04-10-12/WatersideStudy_Huntley.pdf

I live in the Norfolk area and Waterside is in much worse trouble than the Landing.  It's nearly vacant, despite being adjacent to a well-used park, cruise terminal, and museum and the fact that Norfolk's downtown area in general has been on an upward trend for many years now. 

It shifted over time, with some success, from mostly a retail center to a restaurant/entertainment venue, and was holding its own in that area until a couple of the larger and more unique dining/entertainment options shut down due to (I think) liquor license violations and a couple of high-profile brawls and criminal incidents.  Now it's down to Outback, Hooters, Joe's Crab Shack and not much else.  The retail is nearly vacant, as are several large restaurant/club spaces, and the food court is bleaker than the Landing's.

Waterside has several advantages over the Landing, including not turning its back on the rest of downtown, being directly adjacent to a hotel, and having its own parking garage (connected to it by footbridge).  Its main disadvantages seem to be that the rest of downtown Norfolk is pretty vibrant, making it a less obvious focal point; and that Waterside Drive is a very wide road that's essentially at the foot of an expressway, cutting it off from the non-waterfront remainder of downtown (save for the footbridge).  Imagine if Independent Drive were State and Union Streets and you get the picture.

If the Landing was to take down the Main part out of the Horseshoe of the building out? And keep the Restaurants on the waterfront. It would open up the view to the river then build an open park. Laura Street has truly become a focal point for the City of Jacksonville! And with a riverview it would be even better.

[finehoe]

I live in the Norfolk area and Waterside is in much worse trouble than the Landing.  It's nearly vacant, despite being adjacent to a well-used park, cruise terminal, and museum and the fact that Norfolk's downtown area in general has been on an upward trend for many years now. 

It shifted over time, with some success, from mostly a retail center to a restaurant/entertainment venue, and was holding its own in that area until a couple of the larger and more unique dining/entertainment options shut down due to (I think) liquor license violations and a couple of high-profile brawls and criminal incidents.  Now it's down to Outback, Hooters, Joe's Crab Shack and not much else.  The retail is nearly vacant, as are several large restaurant/club spaces, and the food court is bleaker than the Landing's.

Waterside has several advantages over the Landing, including not turning its back on the rest of downtown, being directly adjacent to a hotel, and having its own parking garage (connected to it by footbridge).  Its main disadvantages seem to be that the rest of downtown Norfolk is pretty vibrant, making it a less obvious focal point; and that Waterside Drive is a very wide road that's essentially at the foot of an expressway, cutting it off from the non-waterfront remainder of downtown (save for the footbridge).  Imagine if Independent Drive were State and Union Streets and you get the picture.

So Waterside has its own parking garage, yet it is in much worse trouble than the Landing.  I wonder how those who say that the only thing holding the Landing back is its lack of dedicated parking would respond to that.

[Wacca Pilatka]

I think Waterside's connected parking garage is the reason it got big-name tenants in the first place.  Outback, Jillian's, BAR, Phillips, and Joe's Crab Shack are unlikely to have gone into Waterside without the dedicated parking.

Waterside was primarily a specialty-store shopping center until about 1990 when it started to fade as a shopping destination as many festival marketplaces did.  It started repositioning itself with clubs and restaurants at that point.  In the late 90s, when Norfolk's downtown mall, MacArthur Center, opened a few blocks away, it made a concerted effort to market itself as a nightlife venue and added Jillian's and a couple of large bars/clubs.

The national/regional restuarant and bar tenants generally did good business at Waterside and had 10+ year runs there.  Then a couple of the larger bars/clubs and Jillian's closed due to a combination of brawls, crime, and liquor license violations.  That pretty much pulled the life out of it, because those were the real destination draws for the metro area.  I would drive the 45 minutes from Grafton to Norfolk to spend an evening at Jillian's but I have no reason to drive there for Outback or Hooters.

Outback and Crab Shack are still hanging on with business from people who come downtown and want to eat directly on the waterfront, but that and Hooters are about all that's left of Waterside right now.

Dedicated parking was a help to Waterside, not a hindrance or a nonentity.  It wouldn't have had a couple of long runs of success without it, because it brought in tenants unique to the area that brought outsiders to downtown Norfolk.  Waterside's woes are mostly due to unforeseen circumstances - bad behavior of patrons and a couple of large tenants.  It also developed some direct nearby competition in the very walkable Granby St. theatre/chef-owned restaurant district and the MacArthur Center.  The mall, Waterside, and Granby served different niches and coexisted just fine for a solid 10 years but it might be harder to bring Waterside back now that its audience may have "migrated" to MacArthur and Granby, as well as to the relatively new Virginia Beach Town Center area that also contains nationally known destination dining and retail adjacent to a performing arts center.  A Landing with dedicated parking would not face the same volume of nearby competition. 

[finehoe]

Thanks, WP.

I think you hit upon a key point:  The "festival marketplace's" time has passed.  Even the granddaddy of them all, Baltimore's Harbor Place, is but a pale shell of what it used to be.  I'm not saying this means the Landing should be torn down or anything like that, but expecting it to somehow recapture what it was when it first opened just ain't gonna happen.

[copperfiend]

Thanks, WP.

I think you hit upon a key point:  The "festival marketplace's" time has passed.  Even the granddaddy of them all, Baltimore's Harbor Place, is but a pale shell of what it used to be.  I'm not saying this means the Landing should be torn down or anything like that, but expecting it to somehow recapture what it was when it first opened just ain't gonna happen.

I agree. It was a very 80's concept.

That is why the Landing needs a complete re-do. But as I mentioned I don't see anybody willing to spend the money needed, so the Landing "it is what it is" for the time being.

[tufsu1]

With the amount of kids that I normally see at the Landing, especially on weekends, it seems like an arcade would be a great idea.

On similar lines, I'd love to see a Jillian's/Dave & Buster's type venue at the Landing.  Norfolk had a Jillian's at Waterside until a couple of years ago.

Dave and Busters would be perfect for that former Fuddrucker's Space.

except that there is already a D&B in town...and it is much larger than the Fuddruckers (now Rush St) space

[Wacca Pilatka]

Thanks, WP.

I think you hit upon a key point:  The "festival marketplace's" time has passed.  Even the granddaddy of them all, Baltimore's Harbor Place, is but a pale shell of what it used to be.  I'm not saying this means the Landing should be torn down or anything like that, but expecting it to somehow recapture what it was when it first opened just ain't gonna happen.

I agree.  But with a focus on locally distinctive shops and products, better interaction with the street and the rest of downtown, and some cleaning and refreshing, I think the Landing can remain an important asset as a community gathering place and tourist attraction.  It has a great view, festivals, the Christmas tree, live music, the big video board, the fountain.  Now it has some businesses offering products that you can't get anywhere else (I think I'd go from Virginia to Jacksonville just for River City Gourmet's vinegar even if I didn't have manifold other reasons to visit Jacksonville) and artists at work in studio who can be fascinating to observe.  I would say that it also has some uniquely friendly stores where interacting with the proprietors is a pleasure in itself - River City, Sports Mania, and Aly Cat in particular. 

The national tenants shouldn't be viewed as a solution in and of themselves, but I think adding the dedicated parking necessary to land one or two big draws for downtown-leery suburbanites, coupled with better interaction with the rest of downtown, could provide an important catalyst to the core.  Waterside's time may have passed, but it brought tenants to downtown Norfolk that caused people to pay attention to downtown again.  Waterside wasn't the solution for downtown Norfolk by any means, but it helped lay the foundation for developing community gathering places, expanded transit options, a well-thought-out urban mall, revival of older theaters and hotels, construction of two new hotels, and a number of redevelopment and new development projects that are intelligently designed from an urban planning perspective.

[thelakelander]

^I think a major contribution to Waterside's struggles is the success of the revitalization of Granby Street and MacArthur Center.  In the future, their direct connection to Norfolk's new LRT line will only make them stronger.  At this point, that's a problem the Landing doesn't really have to deal with.  Opening the Landing to Laura Street and the rest of downtown seems like a no brainer to me.  In general, it makes sense for both Sleiman and COJ.  It's a shame that this concept has been on ice for seven years now.

[peestandingup]

I agree with opening up the middle of the Landing & having that part all open air, providing better access to Laura. Not to mention for people crossing over from one side of the Riverwalk to the other via Main Street Bridge. I think simply getting rid of that "mini mall" part would do wonders. Have all the storefronts accessible from the outside.

No one's going to the Landing to walk around on that inside part & shop. That's done.