Piedmont Park: A Destination, Not A Pass Through

[I-10east]

Is it just me, or is large sprawling urban parks overrated? I guess that you would most likely disagree with me if you're a kite flyer, picnicker, frisbee tosser, dog walker (no offense Dog Walker LOL) etc. I look at Piedmont and most large urban parks as 'anyplace USA'. I can come up with about twenty places in the ATL I rather visit than Piedmont. Just looking at a perspective of what makes a large park park successful (atleast during the day) they all have one thing in common; They are around upper to mid class 'decent' areas and they have a perception of being safe; Like it or not, things like low income housing (like in the case of Hogan Creek) can have a negative effect on a park, esp with perception. 

[fieldafm]

BTW, a group from London last year did a study and found homes near parks where sold at a 20-30% premium.  Must have the PDF on my laptop at home as I can't find it at the moment.

[thelakelander]

Instead of adding to supply, we ought to be investing and better maintaining the ones we do have.

Lake, sure, I'll use your own words. Thanks

I'm confused.  Are you saying Metropolitan Park doesn't exist?  This particular comment was made in response to simms3's suggestion that downtown Jacksonville needs a downtown waterfront park.  From my take, we already have them. 

Met Park will hold 10,000 people, the pavilion 3,000. It is a great location, along the river and perfect for outdoor entertainment.

It's just a mile away from everything else.  Might as well invest in Riverside's Memorial Park because downtown will get the same amount of economic benefit from said investment.  It sucks that it's in a location that doesn't contribute to pedestrian scale vibrancy and economic development of downtown.  By the way, I'm coming from a perspective of clustering complementing uses in downtown.  Imo, Metropolitan Park might was well be Talleyrand or East Jax.

You can't put 10% of that in Hemming Plaza without having someone yell fire, and setting off a major panic. Plus, where do 1,000 people park in Hemming Plaza? With Met park, you have Lot J, K, H, M, N - you get the picture, and can you arrive at Hemming Plaza by boat. I rest my case.

Close the streets.  We did it for the Jazz Fest and the Super Bowl.  That's also what they do in several other communities.  Everything doesn't have to be in an isolated venue.

Met Park was created in 1984, but what has the city really done with it since?

Since 1984, Kids Campus was constructed and taken away in less than a decade.  Other than that, Klutho's award winning Hogans Creek promenade was completed in 1929 and Hemming Plaza's makeover occurred around the same time Met Park was created.   Notice the common characteristic?

[Keith-N-Jax]

Large spwaling parks are what make the small ones special. I-10east I dont this you make this comment if Hogan's Creek was well kept by the city.

[Keith-N-Jax]

In reference to Hemming Plaza there is a skyway station right there. People can park and ride.

[I-10east]

I-10east I dont this you make this comment if Hogan's Creek was well kept by the city.

HC can be cleaned, but it will still have that perception of being 'near the hood'. I'm just telling it like it is, I know that people don't wanna hear that.

[fieldafm]

I-10east I dont this you make this comment if Hogan's Creek was well kept by the city.

HC can be cleaned, but it will still have that perception of being 'near the hood'. I'm just telling it like it is, I know that people don't wanna hear that.

One needs to look no further than Buffalo Bayou and Dequindre Cut to disprove that theory.

Detroit



From this:



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Houston

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[JFman00]

Metropolitan Park seems like an (older) poor man's version of Chicago's Millennium Park, except not within walking distance of anything. Big sprawling parks to me aren't a problem, unless they're hard to access. When I look at Hemming Plaza, I imagine it would work better as an actual plaza (something you walk on, not drive around). I can only imagine the horror at this idea, but turning Laura or Hogan between Duval and Monroe into a pedestrian mall would make the Plaza a more relevant space in the city.


(Boulder, CO)

[Tacachale]

We have many great parks, including many great parks in the urban core, but no great downtown parks. Hemming Plaza is obviously not working. Confederate Park and Hogan's Creek ought to be a major attraction but we're sitting on our hands. Met Park is underutilized and will never achieve its potential as long as we're a city that takes noise complaints as the word of God. We have plenty to work with but we keep doing nothing.

[mtraininjax]

Confederate Park and Hogan's Creek ought to be a major attraction but we're sitting on our hands.

Planning and the Mayor's office can offer more details, but the City, during Delaney's term were trying to get Federal Funds to help clean up Hogan Creek. Back in the day, there were some facilities that dumped some very bad stuff in the creek. Same with McCoy's Creek. Only so much money to go around and light rail costs more than fixing our streams and creeks. Needless to say there are still lots of areas with contaminants you wouldn't step foot on downtown, but not a lot of money to clean it up.

[mtraininjax]

I can only imagine the horror at this idea, but turning Laura or Hogan between Duval and Monroe into a pedestrian mall would make the Plaza a more relevant space in the city.

They did this in Downtown Denver, can't remember the street, but it works great, and the area has thrived. I would have no problem if the City blocked all cars on Laura fro the river to Union. Best idea I have heard out here in a while!

[mtraininjax]

This particular comment was made in response to simms3's suggestion that downtown Jacksonville needs a downtown waterfront park.  From my take, we already have them.

I was agreeing with you that we have enough waterfront parks, we just need to take better care of them.

It's just a mile away from everything else.  Might as well invest in Riverside's Memorial Park because downtown will get the same amount of economic benefit from said investment.  It sucks that it's in a location that doesn't contribute to pedestrian scale vibrancy and economic development of downtown.  By the way, I'm coming from a perspective of clustering complementing uses in downtown.  Imo, Metropolitan Park might was well be Talleyrand or East Jax.

It's a mile, OMG, a whole mile? No one drives to a Jags game or takes the water taxi, so I am sure no one can find Met park, being a mile away from downtown.  The Arena, the Baseball Grounds and the Stadium are all not contributing to a "pedestrian scale vibrancy", but let's level them and start over? Maybe the planners of Met Park built the park there on the river to take advantage of the parking and events at other locations.  The cost to build Hemming Plaza into an area for concerts, like that of Met Park is just too expensive, and no one has proven that anyone, with salt, would use the park, with or without thousands of dollars of expense. Met park is more proven and more worth while for changes.

Close the streets.  We did it for the Jazz Fest and the Super Bowl.  That's also what they do in several other communities.  Everything doesn't have to be in an isolated venue.

Now this is a stretch. We only closed Bay and Water Streets from the Landing down to the miracle mile area that is too far for anyone to walk. The Jazz fest used to be at Met Park, on grass, along the river, now it is on concrete and a "pocket" park. The Farah's are thrilled to have the city take over their lot, and then have to clean it up at their expense.

If the City rebuilt Hemming at the same time of Met Park, why did Hemming not receive more of an entertainment park area? Hemming is not Met Park, even with a skyway stop. As it is JTA employees don't even ride the Skyway, and they are mandated to use public transportation.

[thelakelander]

If it worked for a population three times than what's there today, there's no reason to believe this area can't host more events.

It's a mile, OMG, a whole mile? No one drives to a Jags game or takes the water taxi, so I am sure no one can find Met park, being a mile away from downtown.  The Arena, the Baseball Grounds and the Stadium are all not contributing to a "pedestrian scale vibrancy", but let's level them and start over?

Demolish and host more events in the heart of downtown instead of Metropolitan Park are two different topics.  I never said level anything.  I'm the guy in favor of keeping the city hall annex building.  I was in favor of keeping Kids Kampus and connecting the riverwalk to Metropolitan Park.  However, I'm not two crazy about hosting events that could provide an economic boost to downtown in isolation.  Btw, a mile is a huge distance at the pedestrian scale level.  It's not a big deal if that mile is something like Ybor's 7th Avenue.  However, we're talking about industrial wasteland.

Maybe the planners of Met Park built the park there on the river to take advantage of the parking and events at other locations.

Whatever the reason, it definitely wasn't meant to be an economic boost to downtown, which is the focus I've taken regarding this particular discussion.

The cost to build Hemming Plaza into an area for concerts, like that of Met Park is just too expensive, and no one has proven that anyone, with salt, would use the park, with or without thousands of dollars of expense. Met park is more proven and more worth while for changes.

Actually both are vastly under utilized, just like the majority of our urban public spaces.

If the City rebuilt Hemming at the same time of Met Park, why did Hemming not receive more of an entertainment park area?

Glad you asked.  I think most of us can agree that the 70s and 80s were a dark era for urban planning in Jacksonville.  Hemming was converted from a place where events were held into a concrete plaza in a failed attempt to "save" downtown retail.  It's conversion actually help put the final nail in the coffin of major retailers operating around it.  Even now, the city views Hemming as a place to pass through, moreso than a public space destination.  However, that view is completely opposite to Hemming's original purpose.

[fieldafm]

Planning and the Mayor's office can offer more details, but the City, during Delaney's term were trying to get Federal Funds to help clean up Hogan Creek. Back in the day, there were some facilities that dumped some very bad stuff in the creek. Same with McCoy's Creek. Only so much money to go around and light rail costs more than fixing our streams and creeks. Needless to say there are still lots of areas with contaminants you wouldn't step foot on downtown, but not a lot of money to clean it up.

I can speak confidentally on this issue.

There are a variety of entities that are on the hook for cleanup. 

Most of the federal money has been funneled to other sources (Army Corps of Engineers money went to pay for the War in Iraq) (EPA monies through Brownfields Assessment grants have gone to other Brownfields sites-Jax has by far the most in the state) (dissolved oxygen content funds from the EPA vs Florida TMDL lawsuit, which at this time has only allocated money for testing standards, not performance enhancement measures) (EPA monies flowing through a designated EPA Superfund site, the Jacksonville Ash Superfund Site, designed to cleanup the Forest Street and Fifth and Cleveland Ash Sites which lie in the creek basin).

JEA and Public Works(Storm Water Utility and Water and Sewer Expansion Authority) have various responsibilities and funds allocated for stormwater management plans.  BJP had money allocated for septic tank removals(that money is dried up).

The City of Jacksonville is working with the EPA and Florida Department of Environmental Protection to either designate this area a superfund site, or to force private landowners to be obligated to share in the cost of any clean up of coal tar deposits in the area around the current park system.  That has stalled some time ago.

There is currently $901,075 allocated towards the construction of the Hogans Creek Greenway, however that is being held up by issues upstream(ACOE work and the current tidal flooding work conducted by Public Works) and downstream(Ash remediation).

Public Works has been doing a project at the mouth of the creek designed to help flooding downstream.  That and the recent EPA Science and Ecosystem Support Division's report focusing on the health of marine life in the creek are the only money that has been spent in the last year on Hogans.

There are about a dozen various 'hands' into the creek... none of these hands want to get dirty nor work in unison with each other... and in the end, nothing gets done... meanwhile monies get funneled elsewhere.

If it was a priority to key leaders, it would be a different story.  But, it's not.  Most say 'Oh yeah, Hogans Creek.  Someone is doing something about that... I think' and then drive the conversation to an unrelated topic. 

[mtraininjax]

However, that view is completely opposite to Hemming's original purpose.

Lake, that is just the IT. Hemming was never designed to be used the way it is now, but times have changed since its creation and re-birth. Heck, the city has changed. Why must we want to go back and create a vision of what was, instead of what people want now? The lack of crowds downtown show that people do not want to congregate in Hemming Plaza. Besides JMOMA, the Library, a few stores around it and the peripheral block, there is really nothing THERE, that someone cannot find elsewhere in Jacksonville.

The picture you show of Nixon being downtown, maybe that is the key, make it an area for press conferences and news media. Move City Hall meetings out to the park, make the park more of a focal point for city activities, hold meetings there that would otherwise be held in the Ed Ball Building or City Hall. Put the attention on the park, with people using the park, that its more than a simple park, its where Jacksonville does business.

Retail-wise, there just is not enough variation to make a difference for people to need to travel downtown to go to it. However, if the Municipal Code Enforcement meetings were held there, I'd go to them in the park. Same with the LUZ meetings. Why not use the park for more government events?