Is downtown fading?

[Anti redneck]

I think your mention of 'the dominance of FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH' might actually be right on target. Is there another institution in downtown that regularly pumps 10,000 people into the core 2 or 3 times a week, year round? Consider that First Baptist and a host of other churches in the core virtually guarantee 'population'. This population in true southern tradition leaves the church looking for restaurants, recreation and retail.

If MJ, our resident priest and FBC friends could organize a business - DT 'roundtable,' we might be the catalyst for some amazing change. What if the ENTIRE church community in the core announced Sunday, Wednesday, and other days as visit downtown days. What if the ENTIRE food, and entertainment businesses planned for and invited the crowds in? Rather then seeing these churches as obstacles, better to embrace them and have them embrace downtown.

I think MJ could set this up.

I have my opinions on the First Baptist, but I already debated that. So I won't go into it.

[fsujax]

that would be a good move Ock. FBC is now integrated into ArtWalk, so I dont see something like being too hard to pull off.

[kells904]

If there were such a 'roundtable', then there should be mention of all that dead space on Laura St, owned by FBC.  Ennis mentioned way back that they could open up that cafeteria to the outside.  Those lifeless walls along Laura need to go; it counteracts all the renovations a few blocks up.  People in this town effing LOVE Golden Corral.  Were they to turn that cafeteria into something like that, I'm sure they'd get that churchgoer business, and casual business as well.   

[jerry cornwell]

  With these recent posts Downtown is not fading. Maybe its not going in the direction of most here who consider a commerical DT essential for a metropolitan area, but J(action)ville is as vibrant a metropolitan area as any. Many of us here are participating in the recent extraordinary transition of Jax by patronizing new 21st century businesses, art forums, entertainment venues, which are scattered throughout the city, and I do mean the city of Jacksonville. Including Downtown.
We here in Jacksonville are doing great and we are going even further. And im not leading as a cheerleader.

[Anti redneck]

  With these recent posts Downtown is not fading. Maybe its not going in the direction of most here who consider a commerical DT essential for a metropolitan area, but J(action)ville is as vibrant a metropolitan area as any. Many of us here are participating in the recent extraordinary transition of Jax by patronizing new 21st century businesses, art forums, entertainment venues, which are scattered throughout the city, and I do mean the city of Jacksonville. Including Downtown.
We here in Jacksonville are doing great and we are going even further. And im not leading as a cheerleader.

Oh really! How so?

[Ocklawaha]

Besides the remarkable comments from Mr. Khan that say essentially the same thing, the Everbank move, Laura Trio movement and gathering steam for the new convention center, the Smart Cities award speaks volumes to what outsiders see in our back yard. Jacksonville being on that same page as Medellin, virtually shouts 'JACKSONVILLE' to the world.

...The only downside of having Medellin get the same award is 'EVERYONE' in Colombia 'KNOWS' the Skyway is all my fault! LOL!

[jerry cornwell]

  With these recent posts Downtown is not fading. Maybe its not going in the direction of most here who consider a commerical DT essential for a metropolitan area, but J(action)ville is as vibrant a metropolitan area as any. Many of us here are participating in the recent extraordinary transition of Jax by patronizing new 21st century businesses, art forums, entertainment venues, which are scattered throughout the city, and I do mean the city of Jacksonville. Including Downtown.
We here in Jacksonville are doing great and we are going even further. And im not leading as a cheerleader.

Oh really! How so?

These are all solid facts. Some people will have problems with these facts, which I said in my post. But for a large number, the city has never been looking better.

[Ocklawaha]

I think your mention of 'the dominance of FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH' might actually be right on target. Is there another institution in downtown that regularly pumps 10,000 people into the core 2 or 3 times a week, year round? Consider that First Baptist and a host of other churches in the core virtually guarantee 'population'. This population in true southern tradition leaves the church looking for restaurants, recreation and retail.

If MJ, our resident priest and FBC friends could organize a business - DT 'roundtable,' we might be the catalyst for some amazing change. What if the ENTIRE church community in the core announced Sunday, Wednesday, and other days as visit downtown days. What if the ENTIRE food, and entertainment businesses planned for and invited the crowds in? Rather then seeing these churches as obstacles, better to embrace them and have them embrace downtown.

I think MJ could set this up.

I have my opinions on the First Baptist, but I already debated that. So I won't go into it.

Though I haven't been a party to all of the debate, I would guess it's the 'narrow minded exclusionary stereotyping' of anyone that doesn't believe the way they do that is your major problem?

[Anti redneck]

  With these recent posts Downtown is not fading. Maybe its not going in the direction of most here who consider a commerical DT essential for a metropolitan area, but J(action)ville is as vibrant a metropolitan area as any. Many of us here are participating in the recent extraordinary transition of Jax by patronizing new 21st century businesses, art forums, entertainment venues, which are scattered throughout the city, and I do mean the city of Jacksonville. Including Downtown.
We here in Jacksonville are doing great and we are going even further. And im not leading as a cheerleader.

Oh really! How so?

These are all solid facts. Some people will have problems with these facts, which I said in my post. But for a large number, the city has never been looking better.

They've been saying about 15 years ago that "Jacksonville will be as big as Atlanta," that "Jacksonville would become the New York of the South". They were saying that "Jacksonville hasn't been discovered ", to "watch how big this city gets once we host the Super Bowl". That was the talk from back around 1997-99. I'm still waiting. The Super Bowl brought in so many negative responses, I didn't know whether to be ashamed or whether to laugh at all the things that I listed above. Jacksonville cannot become a metro area with the same small-town, good ole boy thinking that has plagued this city for years. In fact, I think Jacksonville got worse after the Super Bowl.  Furthermore I heard football fans and other tourists say "we will never come back here". I think Shad Khan is going to find out the hard way of why no one ever comes here. Yes, he has the right idea, but the politics and attitudes of this city may stop him from "becoming Jacksonville's no. 1 salesman". For crying out loud, we get excited when we get a Hamburger Mary's or any other restaurant of that nature. Yet, we shiver at the thought of bringing in anything big like a theme park or something (and NO, this statement is NOT in reference to Mooneyhan). I'm just saying, I don't see enough big thinking here. We have a lot more to change than just downtown if Jacksonville is going to become this "big major city". I'll tell you why else it's not a major city: because major cities actually contribute to the U.S. Major cities have some sort of significance to them. How does Jacksonville contribute to America? What's the significance of Jacksonville?  Don't give me the Jaguars or the military. That doesn't count. We need to start thinking a little bit bigger. That's when other people will take us seriously. That's when Jacksonville is recognized around the world.

[Anti redneck]

I think your mention of 'the dominance of FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH' might actually be right on target. Is there another institution in downtown that regularly pumps 10,000 people into the core 2 or 3 times a week, year round? Consider that First Baptist and a host of other churches in the core virtually guarantee 'population'. This population in true southern tradition leaves the church looking for restaurants, recreation and retail.

If MJ, our resident priest and FBC friends could organize a business - DT 'roundtable,' we might be the catalyst for some amazing change. What if the ENTIRE church community in the core announced Sunday, Wednesday, and other days as visit downtown days. What if the ENTIRE food, and entertainment businesses planned for and invited the crowds in? Rather then seeing these churches as obstacles, better to embrace them and have them embrace downtown.

I think MJ could set this up.

I have my opinions on the First Baptist, but I already debated that. So I won't go into it.

Though I haven't been a party to all of the debate, I would guess it's the 'narrow minded exclusionary stereotyping' of anyone that doesn't believe the way they do that is your major problem?

No, I don't stereotype.

[Debbie Thompson]

Huh? Anti-redneck doesn't stereotype?  He of the anti-FBC, antii-Christian rants?  :-)

The military doesn't count towards contributing to America?  Gee, poor San Diago, Norfolk and Jacksonville. If only we didn't have those darn military bases, we could be great.  LOL  Don't discount the military as an economic engine. Why do you think Norfolk is fighting tooth and nail to keep every single carrier, and not let the Navy disburse the fleet at all, even one, to Jacksonville?

[Anti redneck]

Huh? Anti-redneck doesn't stereotype?  He of the anti-FBC, antii-Christian rants?  :-)

The military doesn't count towards contributing to America?  Gee, poor San Diago, Norfolk and Jacksonville. If only we didn't have those darn military bases, we could be great.  LOL  Don't discount the military as an economic engine. Why do you think Norfolk is fighting tooth and nail to keep every single carrier, and not let the Navy disburse the fleet at all, even one, to Jacksonville?

Whoa! Don't try to turn this all on me, now! Not cool! I don't go attacking individuals in here. I'd appreciate if you didn't as well. Another thing, don't accuse me of being anti-Christian. I'm far from it. I do not hold grudges against any religions. However, "I have my opinions on the FBC," in other words, that particular church. Another thing, I did not mean that having military installations is a bad thing. I do not understand why that alone should define a city. I would greatly appreciate it, Debbie, if you did not try to tangle up my words and use them against me. I try to remain as non-offensive as I can be. I think you should, too. In fact, an apology would be great.

[jerry cornwell]

  With these recent posts Downtown is not fading. Maybe its not going in the direction of most here who consider a commerical DT essential for a metropolitan area, but J(action)ville is as vibrant a metropolitan area as any. Many of us here are participating in the recent extraordinary transition of Jax by patronizing new 21st century businesses, art forums, entertainment venues, which are scattered throughout the city, and I do mean the city of Jacksonville. Including Downtown.
We here in Jacksonville are doing great and we are going even further. And im not leading as a cheerleader.

Oh really! How so?

These are all solid facts. Some people will have problems with these facts, which I said in my post. But for a large number, the city has never been looking better.

They've been saying about 15 years ago that "Jacksonville will be as big as Atlanta," that "Jacksonville would become the New York of the South". They were saying that "Jacksonville hasn't been discovered ", to "watch how big this city gets once we host the Super Bowl". That was the talk from back around 1997-99. I'm still waiting. The Super Bowl brought in so many negative responses, I didn't know whether to be ashamed or whether to laugh at all the things that I listed above. Jacksonville cannot become a metro area with the same small-town, good ole boy thinking that has plagued this city for years. In fact, I think Jacksonville got worse after the Super Bowl.  Furthermore I heard football fans and other tourists say "we will never come back here". I think Shad Khan is going to find out the hard way of why no one ever comes here. Yes, he has the right idea, but the politics and attitudes of this city may stop him from "becoming Jacksonville's no. 1 salesman". For crying out loud, we get excited when we get a Hamburger Mary's or any other restaurant of that nature. Yet, we shiver at the thought of bringing in anything big like a theme park or something (and NO, this statement is NOT in reference to Mooneyhan). I'm just saying, I don't see enough big thinking here. We have a lot more to change than just downtown if Jacksonville is going to become this "big major city". I'll tell you why else it's not a major city: because major cities actually contribute to the U.S. Major cities have some sort of significance to them. How does Jacksonville contribute to America? What's the significance of Jacksonville?  Don't give me the Jaguars or the military. That doesn't count. We need to start thinking a little bit bigger. That's when other people will take us seriously. That's when Jacksonville is recognized around the world.

I see your point. You ask a very poignant question, "Whats the significance of Jacksonville?" Is it to be the NYC of the South? I dont think so. I will offer that a city of the 21st century is different than the 20th, which, i believe, was the highest achievement of the "city". New York itself with a population of over 10 million is, is effect, a huge center of poor with a small number of very, very wealthy. Los Angeles, which has no true geographical center (like Jacksonville) has approximately the same number, WAY too many people for such an outstanding natural area. To live there is actually a risk to your health. And its a city of one industry, film and television.
For myself, and i understand this question is very relative, our significance is an artistic, cultural, community with these amenities to offer to the members of the community. Also natural resources, which we have in abundance and, i know that i take for granted. By excluding the Jaguars and the military, you are taking away from an appeal to the rest of the world to say, "Hey, we are Jacksonville!". Is that what you are looking for in terms of Jacksonville? Thats fine, but I do know from bringing foreigners to Jacksonville how they  have all loved the city. Our own dissatisfaction is with a lack of my aforementioned traits, which is in the process of turning around as we speak. And the corruption, here directed at the downtown itself. Which, i feel, is being dealt with by moving culture to other areas of Jacksonville, naturally the urban neighborhoods.

[thelakelander]

  With these recent posts Downtown is not fading. Maybe its not going in the direction of most here who consider a commerical DT essential for a metropolitan area, but J(action)ville is as vibrant a metropolitan area as any. Many of us here are participating in the recent extraordinary transition of Jax by patronizing new 21st century businesses, art forums, entertainment venues, which are scattered throughout the city, and I do mean the city of Jacksonville. Including Downtown.
We here in Jacksonville are doing great and we are going even further. And im not leading as a cheerleader.

Oh really! How so?

These are all solid facts. Some people will have problems with these facts, which I said in my post. But for a large number, the city has never been looking better.

They've been saying about 15 years ago that "Jacksonville will be as big as Atlanta," that "Jacksonville would become the New York of the South". They were saying that "Jacksonville hasn't been discovered ", to "watch how big this city gets once we host the Super Bowl". That was the talk from back around 1997-99. I'm still waiting. The Super Bowl brought in so many negative responses, I didn't know whether to be ashamed or whether to laugh at all the things that I listed above. Jacksonville cannot become a metro area with the same small-town, good ole boy thinking that has plagued this city for years. In fact, I think Jacksonville got worse after the Super Bowl.  Furthermore I heard football fans and other tourists say "we will never come back here". I think Shad Khan is going to find out the hard way of why no one ever comes here. Yes, he has the right idea, but the politics and attitudes of this city may stop him from "becoming Jacksonville's no. 1 salesman". For crying out loud, we get excited when we get a Hamburger Mary's or any other restaurant of that nature. Yet, we shiver at the thought of bringing in anything big like a theme park or something (and NO, this statement is NOT in reference to Mooneyhan). I'm just saying, I don't see enough big thinking here. We have a lot more to change than just downtown if Jacksonville is going to become this "big major city". I'll tell you why else it's not a major city: because major cities actually contribute to the U.S. Major cities have some sort of significance to them. How does Jacksonville contribute to America? What's the significance of Jacksonville?  Don't give me the Jaguars or the military. That doesn't count. We need to start thinking a little bit bigger. That's when other people will take us seriously. That's when Jacksonville is recognized around the world.

None of these things have much to do with Jacksonville having a vibrant downtown.  All you need is complementing uses locating together within a compact pedestrian scale setting for the environment most want to see.  There are thousands of cities across the country that have achieved these things without becoming the "Bold City of the South", the next Atlanta, or spending hundreds of millions on some gimmick like an aquarium.  It isn't a money thing.  It's more about fostering opportunities to allow the area to grow naturally and organically.

[WmNussbaum]

It sure is a money problem. What is needed is someone who will spend the money to build "it" so that "they" will come. The big trick is to figure out what "it" is.