New Orleans Saints Bounty Scandal

[duvaldude08]

I see it this way. You can be an effective defense without "taking people out the game". Our Defense this past season is a perfect example. We stayed in the top five all season. Our defense wasnt knocking people heads off, but they were tough and effective. The didnt do anything special and they didnt blitz the QB's like crazy, but they got the job done.  You dont have to those types of intentions to be an effective defense.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I see it this way. You can be an effective defense without "taking people out the game". Our Defense this past season is a perfect example. We stayed in the top five all season. Our defense wasnt knocking people heads off, but they were tough and effective. The didnt do anything special and they didnt blitz the QB's like crazy, but they got the job done.  You dont have to those types of intentions to be an effective defense.

No you don't.  And I believe when they say 'take out the QB', it doesn't mean to do anything outside of the realm of normal football, just don't leave anything on the field and hit him as often as possible.

[TPC]

I'm sure there is some sport fan/numbers guy out there who already worked on this but it would be interesting to see the comparison of "cart off" hits before and during Gregg Williams time with the Saints.

[Tacachale]

NRW, I don't buy it. In pop warner or high school football, players are not (or at least shouldn't be) told to purposefully cause injuries or take cheap shots to take people out of the game.

They are taught to play the damn sport. Injuries are sometimes a consequence of the sport, they aren't the goal of it.

Fortunately, the NFL is likely to make the right move here.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

NRW, I don't buy it. In pop warner or high school football, players are not (or at least shouldn't be) told to purposefully cause injuries or take cheap shots to take people out of the game.

They're not being told to 'purposefully' injure or take 'cheap shots' in the NFL either - I think that's where the misconception is really starting to creep in.   It's called playing 'through' the whistle, and yes, it's taught at an early age.

[mtraininjax]

Where else can you earn millions of dollars to act like the immature brat that you were in grade school? Most NFL players do not earn my respect because TV has made them millionaires, yet they play the same tough game many better, more talented players have played, but who do not have the millions due to TV.

Billionaires act like babies, so how else should millionaires act? Its a game, let 'em play. Otherwise, let women play the game with the men. They do want equal rights!

[Tacachale]

NRW, I don't buy it. In pop warner or high school football, players are not (or at least shouldn't be) told to purposefully cause injuries or take cheap shots to take people out of the game.

They're not being told to 'purposefully' injure or take 'cheap shots' in the NFL either - I think that's where the misconception is really starting to creep in.   It's called playing 'through' the whistle, and yes, it's taught at an early age.

From what I've read, I disagree.

The New Orleans Saints were found to have operated a bounty system in which players were paid bonuses for, among other things, hard hits and deliberately injuring opposing players.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/topics/_/page/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal

According to the league, the additional investigation established the following facts:

"1.  During the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons, the players and other participants involved used their own money to fund a 'Pay for Performance' program. Players earned cash awards for plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries. They also earned 'bounty' payments for 'cart-offs' and 'knockouts.' All such payments violate league rules for non-contract bonuses.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-nfl-saints-paid-players-to-injure-opponents-20120302,0,3490083.story

"Playing through the whistle" this is not.

And it's besides the fact that any pool of this kind, even for legitimate good plays, is flatly against the NFL's contract agreements and is potentially damaging to the entire league's labor relations, which is something else that is often glossed over in this whole discussion.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Words and meanings are being misconstrued for effect. 

If you ask ANY player if they 'deliberately' try to injure someone, the answer will always be a resounding, NEVER.

Ask the same player if they 'deliberately' try to hit the opposition as hard as possible, the answer will always be a resounding, EVERYTIME.

It's cause and effect, and it's football. 

The money is nothing more than a motivational tool (I acknowledge that it's illegal) and I don't see anything nefarious happening.  Unfortunately, this isn't our father's football game anymore and the image the league is pushing is the reason that I doubt Williams will ever see an NFL sideline again as a coach.   If Bill Romanowski and Reggie Miller and even Larry Csonka (a fullback, mind you) played today, they would be spending more time suspended than on the field.  It's just the way things are.  I can accept it, but I don't have to like it.

[duvaldude08]

NRW, I don't buy it. In pop warner or high school football, players are not (or at least shouldn't be) told to purposefully cause injuries or take cheap shots to take people out of the game.

They're not being told to 'purposefully' injure or take 'cheap shots' in the NFL either - I think that's where the misconception is really starting to creep in.   It's called playing 'through' the whistle, and yes, it's taught at an early age.

From what I've read, I disagree.

The New Orleans Saints were found to have operated a bounty system in which players were paid bonuses for, among other things, hard hits and deliberately injuring opposing players.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/topics/_/page/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal

According to the league, the additional investigation established the following facts:

"1.  During the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons, the players and other participants involved used their own money to fund a 'Pay for Performance' program. Players earned cash awards for plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries. They also earned 'bounty' payments for 'cart-offs' and 'knockouts.' All such payments violate league rules for non-contract bonuses.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-nfl-saints-paid-players-to-injure-opponents-20120302,0,3490083.story

"Playing through the whistle" this is not.

And it's besides the fact that any pool of this kind, even for legitimate good plays, is flatly against the NFL's contract agreements and is potentially damaging to the entire league's labor relations, which is something else that is often glossed over in this whole discussion.

Good points!

Acutally these types of pools are against any companies policy. I know I would put out the door for any type of pool at my employer. Any cash that's floating around that is not from payroll, is a violation. I dont care what your profession is. At my previous job one of my co-workers use to pay me to key their applications for them because I was fast. Had my manager found that out, I would have been fired. 

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Acutally these types of pools are against any companies policy. I know I would put out the door for any type of pool at my employer. Any cash that's floating around that is not from payroll, is a violation. I dont care what your profession is. At my previous job one of my co-workers use to pay me to key their applications for them because I was fast. Had my manager found that out, I would have been fired. 

So you're guilty of collecting a 'bounty' for keyed up applications?  No soup for you!

And it's besides the fact that any pool of this kind, even for legitimate good plays, is flatly against the NFL's contract agreements and is potentially damaging to the entire league's labor relations, which is something else that is often glossed over in this whole discussion.

Guys, I'm not glossing over this intentionally, but according to DD08, it's OK.  According to most office Celebrity Death Pools, NFL Picks, NCAA Brackets it's OK, even though your HR manager says it's against company policy as they hand you $10 for next week's sheet.  It's a non-issue.

BTW, did you know that a lot of pro golfers have side-bets going during their tournaments?  Maybe Tim Finchem should suspend those guys from a few tournaments. 

[BridgeTroll]

NRW... even the saints have acknowleged their wrong doing...

Metairie, LA â€" New Orleans Saints' head coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis released a joint statement Tuesday regarding the bounty progam.

They took "full responsibility" for "violations disclosed by the NFL during their investigation of our club."

The NFL on Friday found that between 22 and 27 defensive players, as well as at least one assistant coach, maintained an illegal bounty program from 2009-2011, which included payments to players for inflicting game-ending injuries on competitors.

"These are serious violations and we understand the negative impact it [sic] has had on our game," Payton and Loomis said in the statement. "Both of us have made it clear within our organization that this will never happen again, and make that same promise to the NFL and most importantly to all of our fans."

"This has brought undue hardship on [Saints owner Tom] Benson, who had nothing to do with this activity. He has been nothing but supportive and for that we both apologize to him."

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I was attempting to reply last night but was kidnapped by some random assailants and forced to drink these beverages of sorts until my mind was fuzzy and my speech was slurred.  Next thing I know, I was in getting out of this random car with a light on top at my house.  Harrowing experience, yet somehow, I think I wouldn't mind if it happened again.   

On this topic, we're going to have to agree to disagree. 

Everyone on this thread reads, "...payments to players for inflicting game-ending injuries on competitors." and automatically assumes phrases like malicious intent, willful harm, cheap shots, etc.

I read it and think that it's just part of the game.  I understand that they're getting a payment (albiet illegal) for knocking a player out, but I think it's more to the tune of having 11 lumberjacks, each with an ax to take turns chopping down a tree and rewarding the guy who actually fells it.  (Please no JDR comment about chopping wood) Everyone gets a few shots until the tree has had enough.  I feel it's the same on the field.  They each get their shots, but the guy with the last shot gets paid.

Taking out the opposing QB is in the gameplan every week, bounties or not, it just so happens that their motivational tool, $$$$, and not the hits themselves, are outside of the rules of the game.

[BridgeTroll]

I guess we will just have to wait on the final outcome of the case...

[KenFSU]

And I don't buy that crap that they were intentionally trying to injure the other players.  You don't have to cheap shot someone to have them 'carted off the field'.  Just hit them as hard as you can and let the laws of physics do the rest.

I agree with this statement. When you're playing football at a professional level, the expectation is that every hit is going to be full force. It's a barbaric game, and the rules and equipment are the only real protection that the players have. I don't think an NFL player consciously thinks, "I'm going to hit my opponent at 70% force on this play to protect him." Instead, he's attacking like a runaway locomotive on every hit. For this reason, even though I don't like the spirit of the bounties, I don't know if I necessarily agree that -- given each hit is damn near full force already -- a bounty would necessarily translate to any harder hits or added injury on the field.

I look at it like boxing or mixed martial arts. I'm sure very few participants actually relish the thought of going out there and badly injuring someone, but it's a physical sport, violence comes with the territory, and if you pull your punches or hits, your going to be one carted off on a stretcher. And on a similar note, what's the difference between an NFL bounty and the knockout bonuses that fighters are regularly awarded for knocking out their opponents?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I guess we will just have to wait on the final outcome of the case...

Not really.  If you read my first post, you'll see that I believe that Goodell is going to crucify Williams and will make an extreme example out of the rest involved so it doesn't tarnish the image of His league again.  (see what I did there with the capital 'H'    )

I realize that what they've done is illegal and could be viewed as something that shouldn't be a part of football or any other sport, but I see it as a motivational tool and nothing more. 

I don't agree with cheap shots outside of the rules, but a lot of what I've seen is just football.  It just happens to have an illegal stigma attached to it. 

I guess my main point is that without the 'bounty' it's just good, hard-hitting football, but when you associate the two, most view the same hits as malicious.  I don't.