Thousands of children are deprived of birth due to lack of vasectomy regulation

[Gonzo]

If I read this argument right (and I could be misreading) Faye seems to think no woman should face a tribunal/prosecution for having a miscarriage. I happen to agree.

I also believe that we need to legally define at what point a fetus becomes a human and therefor protected by the US constitution.

I've been very close to a woman who has experienced a miscarriage. It is VERY traumatic. I would have become homicidal towards anyone who attempted to drag her through having to defend herself at this devastating time in her life.

Justice is never perfect nor absolute. It seems to me that we should trust women on this issue. It won't be a perfect system for absolute justice, but it's far better than prosecuting the innocent.

Bucket,

I agree as well. She was framing it as a law that was openly hostile to women in general. When, in fact, the law is meant only to stop women from terminating a pregnancy in an illegal manner. And, while I am not supportive of abortions, in a ham-handed way, the laws attempt to criminalize back-alley abortions that could potentially kill the woman. I'm pretty sure the authorities would have to have very compelling proof that a woman tried to induce a miscarriage before they would even attempt prosecution. It was an extreme example meant to make it seem that the world is out to get women. Paranoia and hysterics, no more.

[FayeforCure]

If I read this argument right (and I could be misreading) Faye seems to think no woman should face a tribunal/prosecution for having a miscarriage. I happen to agree.

I also believe that we need to legally define at what point a fetus becomes a human and therefor protected by the US constitution.

I've been very close to a woman who has experienced a miscarriage. It is VERY traumatic. I would have become homicidal towards anyone who attempted to drag her through having to defend herself at this devastating time in her life.

Justice is never perfect nor absolute. It seems to me that we should trust women on this issue. It won't be a perfect system for absolute justice, but it's far better than prosecuting the innocent.

Thank you buckethead.

I happen to have had a miscarriage as well.........my 6th pregnancy after 5 life births.

It was the most devastating experience, on par with my divorce and the paralysis of my son.

To have to defend myself against false accusations (potentially the case in bad relationships), would be just incredibly traumatic. These laws would create the potential for any woman to be falsely prosecuted for murder when she miscarries.

Per Gonzo: "I'm pretty sure the authorities would have to have very compelling proof that a woman tried to induce a miscarriage before they would even attempt prosecution."

Is the sayso of a nasty boyfriend compelling enough? How can this possibly be proven one way or the other?

[Fallen Buckeye]

My wife recently had a miscarriage actually, and you're right it was devastating. I think it is a little disingenuous to say women are going to become suspects as soon they have a miscarriage, however. It would like any other crime. There needs to be probable cause. If you were accused of such a thing you would have due process, and, like someone mentioned, the burden of proof would rest on the prosecution. Like you say Faye, this would be difficult to prove that a miscarriage was intentionally caused by the mother.

But let's turn the table for a moment. What if a man were to harm his pregnant wife in a way that directly led to a miscarriage? Wouldn't we want justice done in that case? Wouldn't we mourn the loss of this child? I know I personally still mourn the loss from when my wife miscarried naturally (and she even more so), and you yourself called the experience devastating. Those feelings of loss and mourning should speak to the humanity of the unborn more than anything I can say.

[Gonzo]

My wife recently had a miscarriage actually, and you're right it was devastating. I think it is a little disingenuous to say women are going to become suspects as soon they have a miscarriage, however. It would like any other crime. There needs to be probable cause. If you were accused of such a thing you would have due process, and, like someone mentioned, the burden of proof would rest on the prosecution. Like you say Faye, this would be difficult to prove that a miscarriage was intentionally caused by the mother.

But let's turn the table for a moment. What if a man were to harm his pregnant wife in a way that directly led to a miscarriage? Wouldn't we want justice done in that case? Wouldn't we mourn the loss of this child? I know I personally still mourn the loss from when my wife miscarried naturally (and she even more so), and you yourself called the experience devastating. Those feelings of loss and mourning should speak to the humanity of the unborn more than anything I can say.

Well said, Buckeye. I in no way want to diminish the devestation that a miscarriage can cause. I have had friends who have had this happen to them and I sympathize with them deeply. But, the laws mentioned by Faye, do not seem mean-spirited as she would have us believe.

[FayeforCure]

My wife recently had a miscarriage actually, and you're right it was devastating. I think it is a little disingenuous to say women are going to become suspects as soon they have a miscarriage, however. It would like any other crime.

But let's turn the table for a moment. What if a man were to harm his pregnant wife in a way that directly led to a miscarriage? Wouldn't we want justice done in that case? Wouldn't we mourn the loss of this child? I know I personally still mourn the loss from when my wife miscarried naturally (and she even more so), and you yourself called the experience devastating. Those feelings of loss and mourning should speak to the humanity of the unborn more than anything I can say.

FB, thank you for sharing the pain of a miscarriage. Clearly 25% of all pregnancies results in a miscarriage. Women should not be criminalized for suffering a miscarriage, period.

In the case that you mentioned, the tables are indeed turned. It would be the man who caused the miscarriage through abuse to the woman who would be criminalized.

To criminalize abuse to yourself is a completely different matter. Any woman who miscarries can potentially be prosecuted for "causing" the miscarriage. IE, a woman who smokes has a premature delivery and the baby dies. Should we criminalize her too.

All these laws are meant to portray women as bad by definition. Women have to be policed while they are pregnant? I don't think so.

Besides lets focus instead on ending the war in Afghanistan and NOT starting one with Iran.

I don't want children to grow up motherless or fatherless.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

IE, a woman who smokes has a premature delivery and the baby dies. Should we criminalize her too.

[Gonzo]

To criminalize abuse to yourself is a completely different matter. Any woman who miscarries can potentially be prosecuted for "causing" the miscarriage. IE, a woman who smokes has a premature delivery and the baby dies. Should we criminalize her too.

All these laws are meant to portray women as bad by definition. Women have to be policed while they are pregnant? I don't think so.

Again I ask you Faye, do you see black helicopters, too. To characterize these laws as meant to portray women as "bad by definition" is just paranoid and ridiculous. The intent of the law is to be able to bring a woman who causes intentional harm to herself in order to abort a fetus to justice. The only "Bad" woman here is the one doing harm to an entity that is completely unable to defend itself.

Just as law-enforcement and/or our justice system cannot rely on heresay as proof of a crime, a woman who falls down the steps could not be brought before the law unless and until there is proof that she intentionally threw herself down the steps.

Your discussion on these laws that swerve outside of these lines is merely pandering to hysteria.

[FayeforCure]

To criminalize abuse to yourself is a completely different matter. Any woman who miscarries can potentially be prosecuted for "causing" the miscarriage. IE, a woman who smokes has a premature delivery and the baby dies. Should we criminalize her too.

All these laws are meant to portray women as bad by definition. Women have to be policed while they are pregnant? I don't think so.

Again I ask you Faye, do you see black helicopters, too. To characterize these laws as meant to portray women as "bad by definition" is just paranoid and ridiculous. The intent of the law is to be able to bring a woman who causes intentional harm to herself in order to abort a fetus to justice. The only "Bad" woman here is the one doing harm to an entity that is completely unable to defend itself.

Just as law-enforcement and/or our justice system cannot rely on heresay as proof of a crime, a woman who falls down the steps could not be brought before the law unless and until there is proof that she intentionally threw herself down the steps.

Your discussion on these laws that swerve outside of these lines is merely pandering to hysteria.

Without having cameras installed to police every move a pregnant woman makes, you cannot have any proof whatsoever. You'd even have to have cameras installed in bathrooms.

How rediculous, please just stay out of women's  uteri.

Mind your own business and try to make life better for the already born, by stopping the war in Afghanistan and NOT starting one in Iran.

We don't need more children growing up motherless and fatherless.

[Gonzo]

To criminalize abuse to yourself is a completely different matter. Any woman who miscarries can potentially be prosecuted for "causing" the miscarriage. IE, a woman who smokes has a premature delivery and the baby dies. Should we criminalize her too.

All these laws are meant to portray women as bad by definition. Women have to be policed while they are pregnant? I don't think so.

Again I ask you Faye, do you see black helicopters, too. To characterize these laws as meant to portray women as "bad by definition" is just paranoid and ridiculous. The intent of the law is to be able to bring a woman who causes intentional harm to herself in order to abort a fetus to justice. The only "Bad" woman here is the one doing harm to an entity that is completely unable to defend itself.

Just as law-enforcement and/or our justice system cannot rely on heresay as proof of a crime, a woman who falls down the steps could not be brought before the law unless and until there is proof that she intentionally threw herself down the steps.

Your discussion on these laws that swerve outside of these lines is merely pandering to hysteria.

Without having cameras installed to police every move a pregnant woman makes, you cannot have any proof whatsoever. You'd even have to have cameras installed in bathrooms.

How rediculous, please just stay out of women's  uteri.

You are starting to fall apart here Faye. Cameras? Really?

Are cameras necessary to make a finding in a murder case? Do you have to have photographic evidence to convict a bank robber? Nope and nope. What you do have to have is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. No one will be tried under those laws you cited without that.

So where does the proof come from? It comes from competent medical personnel who have examined a woman with an injury that resulted in a spontaneous abortion. Just as the same medical personnel are used to substantiate rape claims, child abuse claims, and spousal abuse claims.

The way you present these laws you would have people believe there will be jack-booted patrols knocking on the doors of pregnant women demanding to examine them for any signs that they may be endangering their unborn child.

Your brand of hysteria is exactly why our country is so screwed up to begin with. It is based on supposition and what-if scenarios instead of solid data and evidence. A conservative few errs to the side of safety rather than to the side of hysteria. It seeks to stop meddling in your business by NOT forcing others to do things for you. In short, it makes YOU responsible for YOUR actions.

Mind your own business and try to make life better for the already born, by stopping the war in Afghanistan and NOT starting one in Iran.

We don't need more children growing up motherless and fatherless.

Hello kettle? This is the pot. Your black!

Mind my own business? You broached the subject! Your president is meddling in my business, he is telling me that I do not have the right to believe the way my religion has taught me and that my Church must now go against its central precepts. Seems to me that it is someone else who is not minding their own business. Obama maybe? You?

But, now that you are on the ropes, you seem bent on changing the subject to a completely unrelated topic. You have not even bothered to answer my questions posed to you several days ago. And yet, I continue to counter-point your diatribes and answer with the reasons why I believe the way I do.

[FayeforCure]

Are cameras necessary to make a finding in a murder case? Do you have to have photographic evidence to convict a bank robber? Nope and nope. What you do have to have is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. No one will be tried under those laws you cited without that.

So where does the proof come from? It comes from competent medical personnel who have examined a woman with an injury that resulted in a spontaneous abortion. Just as the same medical personnel are used to substantiate rape claims, child abuse claims, and spousal abuse claims.


Mind my own business? You broached the subject! Your president is meddling in my business, he is telling me that I do not have the right to believe the way my religion has taught me and that my Church must now go against its central precepts. Seems to me that it is someone else who is not minding their own business. Obama maybe? You?

But, now that you are on the ropes, you seem bent on changing the subject to a completely unrelated topic. You have not even bothered to answer my questions posed to you several days ago. And yet, I continue to counter-point your diatribes and answer with the reasons why I believe the way I do.

So now after a spontaneous miscarriage, I have to be subjected to a medical exam?

Early pregnancy loss is so common that many obstetricians consider these miscarriages a normal part of reproduction.

up to half of all pregnancies end in miscarriage during the first trimester

accept that you may never know why you miscarried. “The majority of the time miscarriage is a random, isolated event and we can’t pinpoint a cause

http://www.conceiveonline.com/articles/seven-most-common-miscarriage-causes

Dear oh dear, there are no finger prints, no witnesses, even the doctors don't know. But every woman is now suspect.

Now if we really are concerned about fetal death, lets focus on the men who kill their pregnant partners.

The most leading cause of death for a pregnant woman and her fetus is murder by the man who impregnated her.

And with that I'm out of here. Your President does not tell you that your wife has to use the pill, period. You can still believe the way your Church has taught you.