Republicans Cut Pay for Servers and Bartenders

[BridgeTroll]

That IS the problem..............it's becoming soooo indicative of America today.

I'm going to say the problem is too much fucking bitching about problems and not enough doing your part to fix them. 

And as much as everyone here might think I'm ultra-liberal............when I lived in Europe I was a "Republican"............I voted for the VVD, which stands for For Freedom and Democracy.

Even in the US I have been a Republican in earlier years.........but things have gotten so much out of hand in the US that is run by the corporations and their lobbyists, that I cannot sit idly by and support a party that continues to make things worse for the average American.

Does that mean we are losing you?? 

[bill]

That IS the problem..............it's becoming soooo indicative of America today.

I'm going to say the problem is too much fucking bitching about problems and not enough doing your part to fix them. 

No, the problem is that Republicans continuously want to make it harder for the "little guy" while pampering the "big guy."

We might be doing the right thing personally..........as "Republicans" really love to use individual anecdotes, while continuing to condone systemic problems that are repeatedly made worse by the next Republican take away.

They always complain about Democrats and supposed hand-outs, now pejoritivly called "entitlements."

http://theglobalherald.com/the-myth-of-entitlements-and-class-warfare/25922/

Republicans themselves are masters at the take-away's, and then they pretend it's for our own good 

They are robbing the poor and middle class to feed "the rich."

The 99% in servitude to the 1%..........it's your typical 3rd world scenario.

Jaxson just posted something while I as putting together my reply.

And as much as everyone here might think I'm ultra-liberal............when I lived in Europe I was a "Republican"............I voted for the VVD, which stands for For Freedom and Democracy.

Even in the US I have been a Republican in earlier years.........but things have gotten so much out of hand in the US that is run by the corporations and their lobbyists, that I cannot sit idly by and support a party that continues to make things worse for the average American.

Actually since 1960 the three branches of of the govt have been held by Dems 62% of the time. So the blame is not on the 1% or the 38% but squarely on the 62%.

[FayeforCure]

That IS the problem..............it's becoming soooo indicative of America today.

I'm going to say the problem is too much fucking bitching about problems and not enough doing your part to fix them. 

No, the problem is that Republicans continuously want to make it harder for the "little guy" while pampering the "big guy."

We might be doing the right thing personally..........as "Republicans" really love to use individual anecdotes, while continuing to condone systemic problems that are repeatedly made worse by the next Republican take away.

They always complain about Democrats and supposed hand-outs, now pejoritivly called "entitlements."

http://theglobalherald.com/the-myth-of-entitlements-and-class-warfare/25922/

Republicans themselves are masters at the take-away's, and then they pretend it's for our own good 

They are robbing the poor and middle class to feed "the rich."

The 99% in servitude to the 1%..........it's your typical 3rd world scenario.

Jaxson just posted something while I as putting together my reply.

And as much as everyone here might think I'm ultra-liberal............when I lived in Europe I was a "Republican"............I voted for the VVD, which stands for For Freedom and Democracy.

Even in the US I have been a Republican in earlier years.........but things have gotten so much out of hand in the US that is run by the corporations and their lobbyists, that I cannot sit idly by and support a party that continues to make things worse for the average American.

Actually since 1960 the three branches of of the govt have been held by Dems 62% of the time. So the blame is not on the 1% or the 38% but squarely on the 62%.

No, the premise of doing everything based on spply-side economics since 1980 is what killed America as we knew it.

[bill]

That IS the problem..............it's becoming soooo indicative of America today.

I'm going to say the problem is too much fucking bitching about problems and not enough doing your part to fix them. 

True liberal logic. The guys you put in for 50 years have seriously effed up the entire system and when it starts breaking down blame the minority. But since you have screwed up everything so badly we are going to give you health care so you can fuck that up. But we will go back and blame Reps anyway.
No, the problem is that Republicans continuously want to make it harder for the "little guy" while pampering the "big guy."

We might be doing the right thing personally..........as "Republicans" really love to use individual anecdotes, while continuing to condone systemic problems that are repeatedly made worse by the next Republican take away.

They always complain about Democrats and supposed hand-outs, now pejoritivly called "entitlements."

http://theglobalherald.com/the-myth-of-entitlements-and-class-warfare/25922/

Republicans themselves are masters at the take-away's, and then they pretend it's for our own good 

They are robbing the poor and middle class to feed "the rich."

The 99% in servitude to the 1%..........it's your typical 3rd world scenario.

Jaxson just posted something while I as putting together my reply.

And as much as everyone here might think I'm ultra-liberal............when I lived in Europe I was a "Republican"............I voted for the VVD, which stands for For Freedom and Democracy.

Even in the US I have been a Republican in earlier years.........but things have gotten so much out of hand in the US that is run by the corporations and their lobbyists, that I cannot sit idly by and support a party that continues to make things worse for the average American.

Actually since 1960 the three branches of of the govt have been held by Dems 62% of the time. So the blame is not on the 1% or the 38% but squarely on the 62%.

No, the premise of doing everything based on spply-side economics since 1980 is what killed America as we knew it.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

You're still missing the point. 

Hourly pay for servers is only a fraction of their income, and if you ask them, it's not an item of contention.  The majority doesn't care if they make $4 or $2 (of course they prefer $4, who wouldnt') because the $200 - $300 they walk out of the door with each night is what they've earned.  The check every two weeks is more like a bonus.  And sure, there are slow nights that they may only make $75-$80 in tips, but if you dig deeper, it's a slow night, they're probably only at work for 4-5 hours and $15/hr isn't horrible. 

You have to realize that they are in a commision driven industry, and you're limiting their potential by trying to apply the euro model here.  Essentially, you're guaranteeing them money, but you're also limiting their potential - yet you, as a business owner / customer, are going to expect the same level of service.  Really?  If I already know that I'm guaranteed to ONLY getting 17% of your bill, then why do I really give a shit about your tea being full?  I want you to hurry up and leave so the next table of 17% can sit down. 

Servers are salespeople - if you limit their income, you take away their incentive to sell. 

[Purplebike]

You're still missing the point. 

Hourly pay for servers is only a fraction of their income, and if you ask them, it's not an item of contention.  The majority doesn't care if they make $4 or $2 (of course they prefer $4, who wouldnt') because the $200 - $300 they walk out of the door with each night is what they've earned.  The check every two weeks is more like a bonus.  And sure, there are slow nights that they may only make $75-$80 in tips, but if you dig deeper, it's a slow night, they're probably only at work for 4-5 hours and $15/hr isn't horrible. 

You have to realize that they are in a commision driven industry, and you're limiting their potential by trying to apply the euro model here.  Essentially, you're guaranteeing them money, but you're also limiting their potential - yet you, as a business owner / customer, are going to expect the same level of service.  Really?  If I already know that I'm guaranteed to ONLY getting 17% of your bill, then why do I really give a shit about your tea being full?  I want you to hurry up and leave so the next table of 17% can sit down. 

Servers are salespeople - if you limit their income, you take away their incentive to sell. 

"...the $200 - $300 they walk out of the door with each night..."
"...there are slow nights that they may only make $75-$80..."

I'm curious about these numbers. Can you share your sources?

It is not the case that all servers make at least 75 dollars on a slow shift. Maybe some do, sometimes. But certainly not all, all the time.

I made far less than that during slow shifts, when I waited tables during the summers, just five years ago. Just two months ago I waited tables during winter break, at a high volume restaurant in South Beach, hoping to supplement the horrible pay that I make as an adjunct instructor (and no health insurance, mind you). I made about 50 bucks in tips during each of the two 6 hour lunch shifts I worked. I thought it would be a lot more. That about paid for my gas to drive down there. I also know full time servers that make far less than 75 bucks on some slow shifts.

There's also the matter of hours worked.

Suppose a server does make 80 dollars on a slow shift. There's a big difference between making that during a 4 hour lunch shift (typically 11 am - 4 or 5 pm) versus making that during an evening shift, which tends to run longer--sometimes 8 hours or even more if it's a late night place.

So, depending on how long the shift is, that 80 dollars could be considered pretty good...or pretty damn bad.

Hospitality work and teaching college have two very unfortunate things in common. Too many people think individuals employed in these positions make a lot more money than they actually do. *Some* servers, bartenders, and college professors (some tenured ones) make a very good living. Many do not.

Whether this is right or wrong that they make such crap money sometimes is not my main point. My main point is this: it's important to get the numbers straight.

Sources
http://chronicle.com/article/Accidental-Activist-Collects/130854/

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I'm curious about these numbers. Can you share your sources?

I have a few different groups of people that I hang out with and most are in the service industry, ranging from casual to fine dining.  I have been in the SI on and off for over a decade, so I also have first hand knowledge, and my experience ranged as well.  I will say, that I don't know of anyone that works in a diner-style establishment, i.e. Waffle House, but I can make a fairly educated guess based on thier volume.

It is not the case that all servers make at least 75 dollars on a slow shift. Maybe some do, sometimes. But certainly not all, all the time.

I made far less than that during slow shifts, when I waited tables during the summers, just five years ago. Just two months ago I waited tables during winter break, at a high volume restaurant in South Beach, hoping to supplement the horrible pay that I make as an adjunct instructor (and no health insurance, mind you). I made about 50 bucks in tips during each of the two 6 hour lunch shifts I worked. I thought it would be a lot more. That about paid for my gas to drive down there. I also know full time servers that make far less than 75 bucks on some slow shifts.

South Beach is a bad example to draw your experience from.  It is an area that is 'stuck'.  Most restauants there already automatically grat the customers due to the amount of international travelers that come through town.  The restaurants that don't.... well, you're hoping that the group of 20 somethings, travelling from Spain, realize that tipping isn't automatic over here and that 10% isn't considered typical.   You're also dealing with touristy environment, so the majority (assumption) of the diners are there while in town, and really don't care because chances are, they'll never see you again.  I've been down there, and I wouldn't want to work there, and yet, I can also say that I've never been WOWed by the service anytime I've eaten there, either.

There's also the matter of hours worked.

Suppose a server does make 80 dollars on a slow shift. There's a big difference between making that during a 4 hour lunch shift (typically 11 am - 4 or 5 pm) versus making that during an evening shift, which tends to run longer--sometimes 8 hours or even more if it's a late night place.

So, depending on how long the shift is, that 80 dollars could be considered pretty good...or pretty damn bad.

The only ones that I know of working longer shifts are the shift leaders / head servers / working managers, whatever you want to call them, or people who have taken the next step - they typically also get paid a different hourly rate than the run-of-the mill worker as an incentive to do a better job and move their way up through the company.  My last real job serving, it was Rio Bravo, so it was a while back, but I was scheduled a lead shift Thursday - Sunday, and my regular hourly rate then was $3.50 (50% more than the rest of floor, $2.13, but as I said, that didn't matter).  At 11:00 I clocked out as a server and back in as a floor manager at $9.50.   There is room for advancement if one seeks it.  It was also my job to make sure we had enough servers on the floor and to send them home when they weren't needed.  Typically on a busy night you have extra people that tend to only work a short shift - volume.  If you were the new guy and you didn't really apply yourself, you found yourself working tues. / wed / lunch shifts / bad sections and getting cut early.  It's a different world, as you've found out, but if you push, you can get what you need.

Hospitality work and teaching college have two very unfortunate things in common. Too many people think individuals employed in these positions make a lot more money than they actually do. *Some* servers, bartenders, and college professors (some tenured ones) make a very good living. Many do not.

Whether this is right or wrong that they make such crap money sometimes is not my main point. My main point is this: it's important to get the numbers straight.

Sources
http://chronicle.com/article/Accidental-Activist-Collects/130854/

Sure.  And my numbers are based on what I see around me today.  My main point is that server pay isn't regulated by the government, it's regulated by individuals who dine out.  Faye seems to think that the evil repubs are out to hurt the workers when, to someone who's around it daily, it doesn't mean a hill of beans.  I'm sorry, life's not fair, and the people who are unable or unwilling to better themselves shouldn't get 'bailed out' because they suck at life.  You said that you were a server for two shifts and only made about $50 per.  How were the others doing?  The one's who had been there for months and years?   Seems a fair question.

[Brian Siebenschuh]

I just think this discussion has gotten too complicated.  Regardless of whether a given server makes $20K a year or $100K a year under the current scenario, if they work a full 40 hour week, they're going to make about $2,000 less annually if the bill goes through. 

And I don't know anybody, regardless of income level, that would be cheerful about a $2,000 a year paycut.

[FayeforCure]

Hospitality work and teaching college have two very unfortunate things in common. Too many people think individuals employed in these positions make a lot more money than they actually do. *Some* servers, bartenders, and college professors (some tenured ones) make a very good living. Many do not.

Whether this is right or wrong that they make such crap money sometimes is not my main point. My main point is this: it's important to get the numbers straight.

Sources
http://chronicle.com/article/Accidental-Activist-Collects/130854/

Thank you for your contribution purplebike.

You just know how it is with Republicans............if you feel you're not making enough...........you are just not working hard enough.

I see that you are working three adjunct instructor jobs at the same time..........without healthcare coverage.

When I lived in GA, I too worked two adjunct instructor jobs at the same time, and worked as a pharmacy tech at Walmart at night.

Perimeter College and Brenau University teaching Economics.

It was grueling, what with raising 5 kids on my own of which one was and still is a quadriplegic.

But as Republicans say........we should all suffer and work the flesh off our bones, because that's the tough luck society they want for the majority of us.

[FayeforCure]

I just think this discussion has gotten too complicated.  Regardless of whether a given server makes $20K a year or $100K a year under the current scenario, if they work a full 40 hour week, they're going to make about $2,000 less annually if the bill goes through. 

And I don't know anybody, regardless of income level, that would be cheerful about a $2,000 a year paycut.

Great bottomline Brian.

[Purplebike]

I'm curious about these numbers. Can you share your sources?

I have a few different groups of people that I hang out with and most are in the service industry, ranging from casual to fine dining.  I have been in the SI on and off for over a decade, so I also have first hand knowledge, and my experience ranged as well.  I will say, that I don't know of anyone that works in a diner-style establishment, i.e. Waffle House, but I can make a fairly educated guess based on thier volume.

It is not the case that all servers make at least 75 dollars on a slow shift. Maybe some do, sometimes. But certainly not all, all the time.

I made far less than that during slow shifts, when I waited tables during the summers, just five years ago. Just two months ago I waited tables during winter break, at a high volume restaurant in South Beach, hoping to supplement the horrible pay that I make as an adjunct instructor (and no health insurance, mind you). I made about 50 bucks in tips during each of the two 6 hour lunch shifts I worked. I thought it would be a lot more. That about paid for my gas to drive down there. I also know full time servers that make far less than 75 bucks on some slow shifts.

South Beach is a bad example to draw your experience from.  It is an area that is 'stuck'.  Most restauants there already automatically grat the customers due to the amount of international travelers that come through town.  The restaurants that don't.... well, you're hoping that the group of 20 somethings, travelling from Spain, realize that tipping isn't automatic over here and that 10% isn't considered typical.   You're also dealing with touristy environment, so the majority (assumption) of the diners are there while in town, and really don't care because chances are, they'll never see you again.  I've been down there, and I wouldn't want to work there, and yet, I can also say that I've never been WOWed by the service anytime I've eaten there, either.

There's also the matter of hours worked.

Suppose a server does make 80 dollars on a slow shift. There's a big difference between making that during a 4 hour lunch shift (typically 11 am - 4 or 5 pm) versus making that during an evening shift, which tends to run longer--sometimes 8 hours or even more if it's a late night place.

So, depending on how long the shift is, that 80 dollars could be considered pretty good...or pretty damn bad.

The only ones that I know of working longer shifts are the shift leaders / head servers / working managers, whatever you want to call them, or people who have taken the next step - they typically also get paid a different hourly rate than the run-of-the mill worker as an incentive to do a better job and move their way up through the company.  My last real job serving, it was Rio Bravo, so it was a while back, but I was scheduled a lead shift Thursday - Sunday, and my regular hourly rate then was $3.50 (50% more than the rest of floor, $2.13, but as I said, that didn't matter).  At 11:00 I clocked out as a server and back in as a floor manager at $9.50.   There is room for advancement if one seeks it.  It was also my job to make sure we had enough servers on the floor and to send them home when they weren't needed.  Typically on a busy night you have extra people that tend to only work a short shift - volume.  If you were the new guy and you didn't really apply yourself, you found yourself working tues. / wed / lunch shifts / bad sections and getting cut early.  It's a different world, as you've found out, but if you push, you can get what you need.

Hospitality work and teaching college have two very unfortunate things in common. Too many people think individuals employed in these positions make a lot more money than they actually do. *Some* servers, bartenders, and college professors (some tenured ones) make a very good living. Many do not.

Whether this is right or wrong that they make such crap money sometimes is not my main point. My main point is this: it's important to get the numbers straight.

Sources
http://chronicle.com/article/Accidental-Activist-Collects/130854/

Sure.  And my numbers are based on what I see around me today.  My main point is that server pay isn't regulated by the government, it's regulated by individuals who dine out.  Faye seems to think that the evil repubs are out to hurt the workers when, to someone who's around it daily, it doesn't mean a hill of beans.  I'm sorry, life's not fair, and the people who are unable or unwilling to better themselves shouldn't get 'bailed out' because they suck at life.  You said that you were a server for two shifts and only made about $50 per.  How were the others doing?  The one's who had been there for months and years?   Seems a fair question.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. If I understand your correctly, you mean to illustrate and argue that some make good money, some do not. And that those who move up into management positions tend to make better money. I agree with both claims.

My only concern with some of the claims in your previous post was that they painted a rosier picture of many servers' experiences than is actually the case. 

Your thoughts?

"I'm sorry, life's not fair, and the people who are unable or unwilling to better themselves shouldn't get 'bailed out' because they suck at life."

Suck at life? Really?

[Purplebike]

Hospitality work and teaching college have two very unfortunate things in common. Too many people think individuals employed in these positions make a lot more money than they actually do. *Some* servers, bartenders, and college professors (some tenured ones) make a very good living. Many do not.

Whether this is right or wrong that they make such crap money sometimes is not my main point. My main point is this: it's important to get the numbers straight.

Sources
http://chronicle.com/article/Accidental-Activist-Collects/130854/

Thank you for your contribution purplebike.

You just know how it is with Republicans............if you feel you're not making enough...........you are just not working hard enough.

I see that you are working three adjunct instructor jobs at the same time..........without healthcare coverage.

When I lived in GA, I too worked two adjunct instructor jobs at the same time, and worked as a pharmacy tech at Walmart at night.

Perimeter College and Brenau University teaching Economics.

It was grueling, what with raising 5 kids on my own of which one was and still is a quadriplegic.

But as Republicans say........we should all suffer and work the flesh off our bones, because that's the tough luck society they want for the majority of us.

Faye--yeah, I don't know how I would make ends meet if I had kids, too! It's tough at times. Luckily I have simple tastes. And I love what I do.

"You just know how it is with Republicans............if you feel you're not making enough...........you are just not working hard enough."

I think perhaps some Republicans take that view, but a lot of them do not. Lots of overgeneralizations going on in these discussion forums! Which is why I don't jump in often, and lurk instead. In my classes, we play fallacy hang man. lol....if / when students overgeneralize in class, in support of a claim, hangman ensues!

[bill]

Hospitality work and teaching college have two very unfortunate things in common. Too many people think individuals employed in these positions make a lot more money than they actually do. *Some* servers, bartenders, and college professors (some tenured ones) make a very good living. Many do not.

Whether this is right or wrong that they make such crap money sometimes is not my main point. My main point is this: it's important to get the numbers straight.

Sources
http://chronicle.com/article/Accidental-Activist-Collects/130854/

Thank you for your contribution purplebike.

You just know how it is with Republicans............if you feel you're not making enough...........you are just not working hard enough.

I see that you are working three adjunct instructor jobs at the same time..........without healthcare coverage.

When I lived in GA, I too worked two adjunct instructor jobs at the same time, and worked as a pharmacy tech at Walmart at night.

Perimeter College and Brenau University teaching Economics.

It was grueling, what with raising 5 kids on my own of which one was and still is a quadriplegic.

But as Republicans say........we should all suffer and work the flesh off our bones, because that's the tough luck society they want for the majority of us.

On the contrary, conservatives(Reps sometimes) are very compassionate and donate to charity more than most. What they do not like is the abuse that goes on in the system. I am sorry that it cannot be equitable to who needs what but that is part of the problem. The Federal government cannot and is not the arbiter of what is fair. The take rights(taxes) and transfers them to others. They do this, like most things they do, in a poor and wasteful way. The people that abuse get more and the ones that play by the rules get shafted. When 50% of the population are net takers there is a problem. When you subsidize something you get more of it. 

[FayeforCure]

I'm sorry, life's not fair, and the people who are unable or unwilling to better themselves shouldn't get 'bailed out' because they suck at life.

Such typical Republican lingo!

So now, getting better pay for our work is considered being "bailed out"

BTW, I'll tell my quadriplegic son who is "unable to better himself" that he "sucks at life."

PS, purplebike, as an instructor in Philosophy.............I understand that you would give people the benefit of the doubt, however I am not willing to let a general Republican philosophy that wreaks havoc on the majority of our lives stand without pointing out its extremism.

Truthfully, I do not think these people are aware of how much extremism and self-centeredness they carry with them. I will not be "considerate" with their "inconsiderateness"

Walking in someone else's shoes is not one of their strong points in their hardline philosophy.

[FayeforCure]

What they do not like is the abuse that goes on in the system.

The Federal government cannot and is not the arbiter of what is fair.

Yeah, lets also do away with traffic lights, because some people run them......besides it's not fair that the government gets to decide who and when someoe should stop at an intersection.