First Coast Forum: The Downtown Dilemma

[Ocklawaha]

It's funny that Jacksonville, other then any other Florida city is having this discussion. Of course my take is from a transportation point of view. Unlike Oklahoma City, Atlanta, Charlotte, Orlando, etc. Jacksonville's unique geography 'forces downtown on it's citizenry.

In Oklahoma City for example, there is a checkerboard of broad avenues, arrow straight, reaching far out into the suburbs. Want to go downtown? Easy, just grab your favorite arterial zip toward town and turn in the direction of the skyscrapers.

Straight lines don't work in Jacksonville, our majestic river and it's tributary's dictate that all roads funnel toward a central point and downtown Jacksonville is that point. It's hard to imagine a scenario where all of Oklahoma City's roads would be squeezed into such a small place, being in the Great Plains Oklahoma City is on the edge of the 'Great American Desert.' Most of OKC's arterial roads just blow right across a couple of rivers which are normally an eighth of a mile of sand, broken by a tiny trickle of water. While these rivers can become enraged monsters, it is quite rare, and doesn't pose any real problem in crossing them.

Jacksonville roads are shaped more like an hour glass with the tiny center being downtown. We can't just pop a bridge across the sand on the St. Johns River. So downtown probably gets more pass through traffic then any of these other cities and to me that spells opportunity. Viva Downtown!

OCKLAWAHA

[Know Growth]

Reminder....downtown will be the topic of discusion on First Coast Connect tomorrow....tune into 89.9 FM at 9am.

And then the First Coast Forum will go in depth on downtown Thursday nighta t 8pm....tune in 89.9 or WJCT TV on Thursday.

Both can also be heard online at http://www.wjctondemand.org/

great to hear you 'in person' tufsu! You command much institutional knowledge,very educational.

KG/aka NM

[JaxByDefault]

Jacksonville roads are shaped more like an hour glass with the tiny center being downtown. We can't just pop a bridge across the sand on the St. Johns River. So downtown probably gets more pass through traffic then any of these other cities and to me that spells opportunity.

That's a great point, Ock! So, the question for you (and hopefully the panel on tonight's program) is, how do we get people to stop downtown? Whether they're tourists on their way to see the Mouse, or locals passing by downtown on their way home, shopping, etc.--how do we get them to spend a few hours downtown?

I think that too much is made of getting people to spend the day downtown. When I lived in Nashville, I would go downtown just to grab dinner just like someone in Jacksonville might head to University or Baymeadows for dinner.

[thelakelander]

In short, it (and the surrounding urban core neighborhoods) is important if this city cares anything about being economically viable.  It's important if we want to get past the annual budget cut discussions of closing schools, libraries, and pension fights. 

That whole area is built for two to three times the population density that exists there today.  The street grid, sidewalks, schools, parks, libraries, and building fabric (what's left of it) is already in place.   It's literally the only area in this sprawled out city where significant growth can be accommodated without first investing hundreds of millions into public infrastructure.

Now, how you properly drive redevelopment and investment is where the fight will be.

[Debbie Thompson]

Well, we could incent the department stores to come back downtown if we had not already filled a lot of their spaces with government buildings that cost taxpayers money instead of generating it.  :-)  However, there are store fronts available still.  How about boutique department stores?  Why couldn't Penneys, Sears or Belks open a small store front with just clothing?  Their most popular lines.  Or some of the popular mall stores open a storefront downtown?  We'd have to accommodate free parking, like the burbs, but it could be done.

[JaxByDefault]

Now, how you properly drive redevelopment and investment is where the fight will be.

I think that you've hit this nail on the head several times, Lakelander, but removing a lot of the needless restrictions and regulations is the first step. Government needs to get out the way and let the market work. You think this idea wouldn't be so hard to sell in a city as conservative as Jacksonville, but every city department seems to want to keep sticking their nose into everything that every business tries to do.

Our city leaders have been too hung up on the one-trick pony--finding some big development to come in and "save" downtown. Well, decades later, it still hasn't come. Let's create an environment where the mom-and-pop businesses--the life blood of any urban area--can succeed.

But, like you say, we'll always have a fight about this issue.

[thelakelander]

^JaxByDefault, your solution is actually the most sound, simple, affordable, and effective one out there.  The city's worst enemy to a vibrant downtown has been itself.  It wasn't white flight or the suburbs.  Downtown has been choked by two many restrictive policies that have made it harder to incubate small business growth in favor of urban renewal related expensive gimmick projects over the years.  Attempting to lobby the value of downtown to people who never wanted to be there anyway (the majority of those who live in the suburbs) is a complete waste of time, imo.  There's nothing wrong with marketing but if you don't deal with the real issue first, it's not going to really accomplish anything truly effective and game changing.  The best thing the city could do is modify policy and simply get out the way.

[River City Gourmet Shoppe]

As a Jacksonville native and one of the new businesses at the Landing, I would like to let all of you know that I feel that there is the start of a downtown business resurgence in Jacksonville.   The Landing is trying to bring in new boutiques for a new downtown shopping experience.   Jacksonville is the prettiest City in the Southeast and has so much to offer but somehow through lack of leadership, passivity or simply no planning, Jacksonville is suffering the ills of a downtown that is not half as vibrant as it was 20 years ago.   Urban sprawl didn't cause all of these woes;  should the blame be placed on ourselves for not supporting our local stores?    Please support small businesses in downtown Jacksonville, it will help spark new businesses and eateries and therefore help all of downtown.

[fsujax]

I have noticed all the new stores that have opened in the Landing. Your wing of the Landing is actually almost full. If only it were more visible from the street.

[thelakelander]

One of the overlooked issues is not properly understanding how we got to this point before brainstorming for redevelopment solutions.  Downtown grew because of a location where the rail and maritime industries interchanged.  Between the wharfs, steamships, passenger trains, freight depots, and associated services, those industries funneled thousands of people from various walks of life right into the heart of the city.  Because of them, several hotels and a red light district opened.  That critical mass of created a market for retail.  Couple that with a 60 mile streetcar network that funneled people between various neighborhoods with downtown as the central transfer point.

So how does downtown slowly decline over 50 years?

1. The maritime industry is relocated in the 1950s name of cleaning up blight.

2. The 1960s brings a decline of rail traffic and by 1974, we've relocated all of our rail facilities (passenger and freight) right out of downtown.  Between these two industries, thousands of people go right along with them.  For example, in 1944, the train station employed 2,000 people alone.

3. With no maritime and rail to bring people in, the hotels close in droves throughout the 1970s.

4. With no maritime, rail, tourist, etc. a nail is driven into the heart of the retail sector by the mid 1980s.  Keep in mind, the original wave of suburban malls were developed in the 1950s and 1960s, yet downtown as a retail scene enjoyed some of its best days during the same period.  However, the addition of parking meters and toll bridges weren't exactly growth stimulating moves.

5. Also during this continuous slow decline, instead of dealing with the issues ultimately caused by removing the two original economic anchors, we dive into decades of failed redevelopment strategies (many of which, had more to do with racial/cultural separation than building a vibrant downtown).  A prime example would be the separation of Springfield and Downtown by a twisted network of one-way streets and the elimination of Hanson Town.

6. Those failed projects typically ended up with the demolition of various structures and neighborhoods, which in term, continues to remove people from the core.  An example would be the "cleansing of LaVilla" during the 1990s.

The return won't happen overnight but the easiest thing to do is to remove the policies placed on the area during its declining years to allow for personal innovation and creativity to happen within a compact setting.  It's worked in other communities.

Long term, from a public investment and planning perspective, it should be less about trying to get a specific retailer or grocery store downtown and more about repairing the economic base (bringing amtrak back and allowing more maritime related uses are good starts) and lost connectivity between surrounding neighborhoods.  Remember cities are organic in nature.  You just can't say I want to turn this particular street into an entertainment district or I want a hotel to locate right at this exact spot (which this city repeatedly has done in the past) and it happens.  For example, just look at the CoRK area of Riverside.  In a few years, with no city help, a ton of artist and two microbreweries have moved into the area.  All of which, would probably have loved to located within downtown, if it were feasible for them to do so.

Unfortunately, this means admitting failure and implementing planning strategies that don't really sound sexy or appealing.

[tufsu1]

Ennis is doing a great job tonight....I just wish they'd figure out the audio for the WJCT-TV (the radio is fine)

btw...wonder what happened to the 3 other panelists that were supposed to be there...maybe they're coming on for the second half

[tufsu1]

ah ha...answers that question...they switched folks out

[Debbie Thompson]

It would be nice to be able to HEAR it.  What is UP with the audio?

[acme54321]

Haha no joke, the audio is whack.

[duvaldude08]

Nice so far....