Amtrak: Flagler Line Will Happen

[thelakelander]

The major cost is not the actual station improvements. It is the track and signal upgrades that CSX, FEC, NS and Amtrak want.

yes...which is why I said $15+ million

I'd be interested to see cost estimates itemized.  Is there a publicly accessible budget breakdown of this project?  Has planning gotten that far?

[Ocklawaha]

Sounds to me like we're standing in the middle and trying to pull away in four directions at once. As has been stated, the issue at hand for the Brown administration is to give a thumbs up or down to the eventual convention center move. If that move didn't happen until 2015 or 2018 it wouldn't matter so long as we STOP the current JRTC nonsense dead in its tracks.

The apparent need  to abandon the current Greyhound station for a new isolated station for the sole purpose of social, racial and class segregation could be answered in any number of ways.

The former Black waiting room (which is exactly what New Orleans did at their Union Station Transportation Center) could be utilized and the room temporarily cut from convention space. Depending on peak loads it is possible that all bus and train operations could work from this space as a strictly interim basis.

Greyhound could also be easily handled at the Skyway Lot with a portable temporary station, anyone want to reassemble our pre-fab cruise terminal downtown?

Convention Business could be temporarily farmed out to the Arena or split between the two with Potato Chip Truck Trolley's serving as a shuttle link.

Amtrak is currently handling about 190 PASSENGERS daily at Jacksonville, or about 95 per train. For business and capacity considerations we would have to calculate for Uncle Al and Aunt Sue and the kids, meeting the train. This should mean at the current rate, Amtrak would probably attract between 300 - 600 people into the station daily.

Amtrak's current station, with a single passing siding along a double track mainline could be duplicated at Jacksonville Terminal for chump change.  They split trains out there from 1974 until they were forced by budget cuts to give up the route through Ocala. For a simple split or combination of a single train, two tracks are all that is needed. They still own the Clifford Lane property and any equipment needing to be pulled from service could be spotted there.

If Amtrak could not be accommodated at the current 'building' a portable 'AMSHACK' of the same type used all over the country would make due. 

FEC, CSX, NS and AMTRAK, naturally want the most bang for the buck if the citizens foot the bill for trackage changes at the terminal, nobody can fault them for that. Remember that Amtrak is about as welcome in most of the industry as your neighbor who decides his lawn shed must be 12 feet inside your back yard. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Assuming that everything ran like clockwork the railroads see a need for immediate capacity increases, a need for junction and signal improvements, a need to add passengers and their trains into the terminal mix, a need to watch for the oft talked about 'commuter rail' and the many more tracks it will require.

IF the convention center is going to go, the 'JRTC' needs to be immediately stopped and a new consolidated plan developed. If this is not done, we surrender our transportation center opportunities for decades.

Future railroad storage and maintenance could be handled at the old yard on/under the Conrad Yelvington site, with still contains 8+ tracks and ties directly into the terminal throat.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Here is that 'CRITICAL' convention center schedule from 2010... About 1.5 per month! 18 total events, count how many of these events actually brought in large numbers from out of town... Contrast this with Amtrak which brought 2920 'events' to town last year in the form of each arrival and departure. Don't make me laugh, this thing is a sad joke in a wonderful palace.

JACKSONVILLE SENIOR EXPO
May 19 & 20, 2010

THE SOUTHEAST US BOAT SHOW
September 10-12, 2010

THE FLORIDA BLACK EXPO
October 9 & 10, 2010


WORLD CONGRESS & EXPO
ON DISABILITIES
November 15-19, 2010


THE 26.2 WITH DONNA
HEALTH & FITNESS EXPO
February 19 & 20, 2010


SALVATION ARMY CELEBRITY CHEF TASTING LUNCHEON
March 11, 2010


THE GRAND CHAMPIONSHIPS
April 11, 2010


CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
BUSINESS EXPO
May 26, 2010

QUILTFEST 2010
September 23-25, 2010


JACKSONVILLE NATIONAL COLLEGE FAIR
October 16, 2010


EMPTY BOWLS LUNCHEON
November 16, 2010

JACKSONVILLE MODEL TRAIN & RAILROAD ARTIFACT
SHOW & SALE
February 20, 2010

ALL STAR CHALLENGE
CHEER & DANCE
NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS
March 20 & 21, 2010

ADMINISTRATIVE PROFESSIONALS
CONFERENCE & EXPO
April 14, 2010

HOME SCHOOL CURRICULUM CONFERENCE
July 16 & 17, 2010

FALL JACKSONVILLE HOME & PATIO SHOW
Sept 30-Oct 3, 2010

SOUTHERN WOMEN'S SHOW
October 21-24 , 2010

CHRISTMAS MADE
IN THE SOUTH
November 26-28, 2010

[JeffreyS]

How can that line up not share the space with Amtrak, MegaBus, Greyhound, Streetcar, the skyway and a small mall? Answer it can.

[Ocklawaha]

Jeffery, for now it certainly could... Down the road, if we could get the convention center out of there we could utilize the current convention 'box' behind the historic station as the site for bus and motor coach operations, condensing the entire station down to the exact size of the original terminal and stub yard. All of that and we wouldn't even have to bother our current parking lot west of station.

OCK

[Charles Hunter]

It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use.  Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?

[Ocklawaha]

MORE LIKE A LARGE PHONE BOOTH AND AN OUTHOUSE... 

Quote from: thelakelander on December 28, 2011, 04:10:45 PM


Quote
"People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."

So conventioneers and the local population can't mix because they are afraid of us... Banjo music anyone? As for travelers, how in hell is anyone going to 'feel like an island' when they have to walk all over La Villa to connect?

OCKLAWAHA

This smacks of the 'Jim Crow or Immigrant Train era.'  The perverted logic of this excuse says that passengers who use the bus are unfit for social interaction with the greater community. Transferring passengers to and from Amtrak are welcome as long as they don't go to the 'bus station.' A metamorphosis takes place as soon as one walks through the doors of a free standing Greyhound station, students, senior citizens and bus tour groups, regardless of race, income or social status in Jacksonville are labeled UNDESIRABLES.   Be very careful if you ever need to ride the bus to Gainesville as  'ARBEIT MACHT FREI' is alive and well in Jacksonville.

...And yes, ALL IS LOST if we let this carrier to escape, losing Greyhound DOES KILL THE JRTC, because basically you have Amtrak intercity LONG-DISTANCE, plus, local bus and local Skyway as an URBAN DISTRIBUTER and Greyhound for regional transfers. Remove Greyhound and you have kicked the regional connectivity completely out of the picture.  REMOVE GREYHOUND AND YOU REMOVE 'REGIONAL' HENCE THE WHOLE CONCEPTUAL FUNCTIONALITY OF THE  STRUCTURE COLLAPSES.

FROM THE THREAD - BACKGROUND STORY BEHIND JTA GREYHOUND TERMINAL.

SOME ARE TELLING US A COMPANY FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, TRANSPLANTED TO JACKSONVILLE, IS PROMOTING THIS SEGREGATION? REALLY?

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use.  Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?

My guess is that they will if the Mayor and Council say they will.

[Ocklawaha]

12,835,000 SOURCE JTA, apron. based on October 7 ridership release (includes Skyway)
70,728 SOURCE AMTRAK FLORIDA FACT SHEET 2010
3,200,000 SOURCE, Greyhound Lines CEO

16,106,720 TOTAL annual surface transportation ridership in Jacksonville today, or about 44,128 daily. Comically this ASSumes that the entire ridership of JTA will pass through the terminal, when a small fraction is more likely. The Jacksonville terminal handled about 55,000 daily circa 1925, before it's mid-Florida boom expansion was completed.

Can't handle what?

OCK

[tufsu1]

How can that line up not share the space with Amtrak, MegaBus, Greyhound, Streetcar, the skyway and a small mall? Answer it can.

go to the auto show (which is attended by thousands of people) this year and answer it yourself...better yet, go to the MLK breakfast and see how the entire exhibit hall is used for one sit down meal.

and no folks, the auto show will not fit inside the arena or the indoor space at the fairgrounds!

[tufsu1]

It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use.  Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?

My guess is that they will if the Mayor and Council say they will.

wrong...the out of town conferences and trade shows will go somewhere else

[JeffreyS]

So your take is that the Jax Terminal's use should be exclusively based on the parking issues of two days a year.  How about they use Kings ave and the skyway. Not being sarcastic parking should be mitigated if the alternate use proposed to share the building is transit.

[tufsu1]

It isn't a parking issue....the entire building (exhibit hall, atrium, meeting rooms, black waiting room, grand hall) is filled with new cars....and by comparison with other cities, our auto show is pretty small.

[thelakelander]

Could the cars be moved from the old black waiting room to outside under a temporary structure (if the space were shared for a few years)?

[JeffreyS]

It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use.  Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?

My guess is that they will if the Mayor and Council say they will.

wrong...the out of town conferences and trade shows will go somewhere else

Which conference do you think we would lose? Don't we mostly book traveling shows that want to hit every city they can?

If it is an image thing don't start with local bus service other than a normal bus stop.  Integrate the more choice transit options first.

I do think the logic is flawed.  I love the St. Louis convention center because transit converges there.