Historic Savannah: A Destination, Not A Pass-Through

[simms3]

Obviously people don't commute between the two cities, but there is a strong bond, a strong relationship, much like between Dallas and Fort Worth (only a greater mileage).  Besides I don't need to answer to you, we obviously don't have a mutual respect and that's ok.  If I lived in Kansas City, I would replace Atlanta with Kansas City.  I'm not the only one doing "Learning From" articles/points of view.  I also acknowledge that I refer to Atlanta a lot...I usually prelude with a slight on myself for it.  Thanks for missing that.  You live in Jacksonville...I live in Atlanta and am from Jacksonville.  You live in a city that is really doing almost nothing right. I live in a city that was once doing nothing right and is now doing almost everything right.  I see things on the ground up here, including the relationship between the state and these two cities, and the relationship directly between these two cities, that you could not possibly see where you are.  Ok?

My initial post in this thread besides my enthusiastic post about the design of Savannah itself (one of many contributions I try to make...) was a clamoring for a relationship between Jax and St. Augustine like Atlanta has a relationship with Savannah.  You're the one who was all up in arms about it.  I may have hurt your feelings with a comment on JU, nothing personal was meant about it, and I apologize if I did, but I was also clamoring for a better relationship between Jax and its universities.  I think that starts equally with the universities, or even moreso with the universities themselves than with the city.  SCAD was a frame of reference for that.

[fieldafm]

I see things on the ground up here, including the relationship between the state and these two cities, and the relationship directly between these two cities, that you could not possibly see where you are.  Ok?

Simms, I've lived in Atlanta as well... and travel frequently to do commercial business development in other cities.  You can make some good contributions at times around here... I genuinely like reading them.. but saying things like that is at best pompous, and I'll gladly give you the opportunity to retract that statement.  I was once young as well, and can recall serveral times I stuck my foot in my mouth. 

You live in a city that is really doing almost nothing right. I live in a city that was once doing nothing right and is now doing almost everything right.

Comparisons b/w one muncipality and another are valid and we all use them around here.  It's obvious you like living in Atlanta.  That's great.  I'm not bashing that.  We should all be satisfied with the choices we make.  But, no city is infallible.  Atlanta does a lot of things wrong.  I've witnessed that both as a resident and as a businessman.  I do agree with you that they are doing some things right now, that they weren't before.  Always spouting off about how horrible Jax is in relation to Atlanta, gets real old.  Believe me, I am not the only person on the board who believes so.

was a clamoring for a relationship between Jax and St. Augustine like Atlanta has a relationship with Savannah.  You're the one who was all up in arms about it.

You still have not defined what that is.  I am not 'all up in arms about it' nor am I arguing with you, I'm genuinely asking you to define what you mean by that. 

St Augustine is a small tourist town of less than 15k people, a per capita income that is less than half of Jacksonvilles, with a very small airport and related aeronautical industry(smaller than 4 of the airports in Jax), a small private university, no port, a very small military presence and very little industry otherwise.  What economic or cultural opportunity is being missed?  Except for being old and having a significant portion of their local industry tied to tourism, St Augustine and Savannah share very little in common.

clamoring for a better relationship between Jax and its universities

There is room for opportunity there, I am in agreement. 

[duvaldude08]

You live in a city that is really doing almost nothing right. I live in a city that was once doing nothing right and is now doing almost everything right.

Comparisons b/w one muncipality and another are valid and we all use them around here.  It's obvious you like living in Atlanta.  That's great.  I'm not bashing that.  We should all be satisfied with the choices we make.  But, no city is infallible.  Atlanta does a lot of things wrong.  I've witnessed that both as a resident and as a businessman.  I do agree with you that they are doing some things right now, that they weren't before.  Always spouting off about how horrible Jax is in relation to Atlanta, gets real old.  Believe me, I am not the only person on the board who believes so.

Did someone call my name 

[peestandingup]

I think Simms is still very young & just enthusiastic about where he lives, so he thinks its the best thing since sliced bread & always finds a way to work it into every conversation on a Jacksonville blog, even if it really doesn't pertain to the subject. And yes, you do do that man. And yes, it does get a bit tired. Especially when it usually has the "we're great at everything, you guys suck at everything" tone to it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but lawdy. Take it easy.

And I guess if all you really know is Jacksonville & Atlanta (and the south in general), then yeah. Atlanta is probably gonna seem like some kind of urban wonderland. But put into the grand scheme of things, that's honestly not saying a  whole hell of a lot if you want the truth. Meaning, like field said, a lot of people on these forums have lived all over the country/world in cities that would make Atlanta look, well, like dog shit. No offense.

[simms3]

1) peestandingup, love your continual lackadaisical dialogue which rarely adds any real substance.  BTW, my mom is from Chicago and my dad's family mostly resides in Philly, and both my parents moved up to Jax from Miami as I was born.  I am pretty well traveled, but I reside in Atlanta, so that's where I do get most of my experience from.

duvaldude08 and fieldafm,

Yea I am pompous, damn right.  I am working my way up real fast in a big city - a place with a blue blood society (especially in real estate), a place where everyone went to a top 20 university, where everyone is a CFA, where everyone has a pedigree, where competition is fierce, and where I have to make my own connections unlike the easy road I would have in Jax (easy but slow and limited with zero big opportunities and lower pay).  I have to pat myself on the back and my ego comes with the territory.  Get used to it.  If you think I have an ego, try some of my friends in NYC or Boston!  I am not trying to "bash" Jacksonville when drawing comparisons or posting articles, and I have experience in other cities, too.  I am actually far along in the interview process for 3 syndicators/development firms, so I will get even more experience in other cities supposing I get to choose one for employment (I am gainfully employed now, just expanding my horizons).  This year alone I have worked on deals worth $579M in Birmingham, Hartford, Knoxville, all 4 cities in FL, Greenville SC, Houston, Dallas, and Nashville, and I have either visited or studied those cities intensely as a result.  I have a general awareness about what is going on in more than just my little world.

The fact that I piss people off on here actually is a source of pride and frustration.  The environment down there is just different.  I don't know when you lived in Atlanta or what you do or what you did up here, but I also don't know why you moved down there.  From my POV, if I'm changing cities I'm certainly going to bounce up to the next level, aka Chicago, LA, or New York, not Jacksonville.  I don't know your experiences and I don't see how you don't see the bond Atlanta has with Savannah, not that I care.  Saint Augustine, as I said before, is the seat of 200,000 people.  It also spends at least double what the city of Jacksonville spends on marketing itself.  I think if there is any way to get tourism up in Jax, it is to piggyback on with St. Augustine.  That would be the relationship benefit there.

In GA's case, it is a slightly different scenario where there is one major city, but the ties to Savannah are there.  The port is as much Atlanta's as it is Savannah's.  It benefits Atlanta more actually than it benefits Savannah.  Many of the players in Savannah went to college in and around Atlanta, and families often have members in both cities.  Everything that has been created in Savannah, like SCAD, has also branched off in Atlanta.  There is no political animosity between the two cities, and their economic and political interests are closely aligned.  They have a symbiosis.  The other relationship would be Athens to Atlanta because of UGA and proximity.  There is no "relationship" with Augusta, Columbus, Albany, or Valdosta.  There is actually very public distrust and enmity between most of small town and rural GA and Atlanta with the notable exception of Savannah and of course Athens.

The dialogue up here is one where even casually residents are comparing places and things to Chicago, DC, and New York.  There is never a sense of satisfaction.  There is always talk even on a Friday night about what's going on, what should be done differently, what can be done differently.  Editorials focus on comparisons and how to improve.  Comparisons are usually with other cities doing things right, ranging from Nashville to New York, never Jacksonville.  In Jacksonville the self esteem and self awareness is so lacking that people delude themselves into thinking all sorts of things (like the delusion that Jacksonville is some hub of medical innovation and biotech startups) and any negative feedback is met with suspicion and defense.  Another population difference is that for some reason people from Jacksonville remember all the negatives of where they came from and forget all the positives, always return if they are from Jax originally, and/or never leave in the first place.  For a city with 45% of the population from some other state, it's amazing the level of public disinterest there is in improving the place.

The same ratio holds up here - about 45% from out of state.  Instead of the New Yorkers coming down here and saying we don't want it to be like it was up there, they basically make it like it was up there.  It's just a different mentality.  My mentality used to be of someone raised in Ortega and 100% Jacksonvillian.  Now I am basically almost losing all touch with my hometown and my interest has waned significantly.  Can't imagine returning...ever, at this point, but the fact I'm still on this board means a part of me does actually want to see better for my hometown.  I do have to bear a few days down there here and there, so might as well hope for an interesting time while I'm there

As an analogy, we are talking about the CoRK district.  Right now it is an ugly area of decrepit homes and non-historical single story warehouses (and vacant lots).  Some artists work in one and there are two very popular breweries in two others, so there is something there.  Instead of just pointing out that "there is something there," why not look at the stories of theoretically similar districts in other cities?  I, of course, posted an article about the history of the ACAC on Atlanta's westside, because I see a potentially similar path for CoRK and the impact the art community can have on it.  I think using one of the most successful urban re-use/warehouse districts in the south, created over the course of 25+ years with the artists as the pioneers, serves as a beneficial model.  Not a "down on Jacksonville" thing.  If the use of that article pissed you off somehow, then you are simply catching feelings all over the place.  You would be the type of person that could not take life in a larger, busier city as it would break you into thousands of pieces and then spit you back down to Jax.

Up here people like myself are intently involved in building up the Midtown Mile.  We are looking at modeling the process that has tranformed the Magnificent Mile in Chicago...over 45 years!  We are in the same boat...smaller cities like Jax SHOULD look at 2nd tier cities like Atlanta, which in turn are presumably looking at Gateway Markets like Chicago and DC.  This is not rocket science.

Links I found one day and forwarded on to a hoard of people here (and my uncle in Chicago who was an asset manager at Lincoln Property Company).

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/17/realestate/a-new-challenge-for-chicago-s-magnificent-mile.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/section/search?q=900 north michigan&mode=text

Aerials of the area from the late 70s and early 80s would blow you away...more surface parking than in Midtown Atlanta!  Anyway, this is what I do...GET USED TO IT.

Now today was a MetroJacksonville day for me, so you got a lot.  Perhaps that has you on edge

[Bike Jax]

The problem with Savannah is all those old buildings. About a third of them could be torn down for surface parking. Look how well its worked for Jacksonville.

[dougskiles]

So...back to Savannah.  Very cool city and I am grateful that it is only a short drive away.  These comparison articles provide good inspiration and fresh ideas, but every city has their challenges.  And I would say that one may think they are doing everything right only to find out 10 years later what huge mistakes they were making.

Jacksonville is a great place to live - and it is because of the people that I confidently say that.  I don't measure a city by the number of multi-million dollar projects going on; I measure it by the people who are working to make their home a better place for their families and generations to come.  I am constantly surrounded by such people here, and it is humbling.

[I-10east]

The problem with Savannah is all those old buildings. About a third of them could be torn down for surface parking. Look how well its worked for Jacksonville.

That horse is dead already. Comments like this is what drives me crazy when reading these "comparison" type threads.

[Tacachale]

1) peestandingup, love your continual lackadaisical dialogue which rarely adds any real substance.  BTW, my mom is from Chicago and my dad's family mostly resides in Philly, and both my parents moved up to Jax from Miami as I was born.  I am pretty well traveled, but I reside in Atlanta, so that's where I do get most of my experience from.

duvaldude08 and fieldafm,

Yea I am pompous, damn right.  I am working my way up real fast in a big city - a place with a blue blood society (especially in real estate), a place where everyone went to a top 20 university, where everyone is a CFA, where everyone has a pedigree, where competition is fierce, and where I have to make my own connections unlike the easy road I would have in Jax (easy but slow and limited with zero big opportunities and lower pay).  I have to pat myself on the back and my ego comes with the territory.  Get used to it.  If you think I have an ego, try some of my friends in NYC or Boston!  I am not trying to "bash" Jacksonville when drawing comparisons or posting articles, and I have experience in other cities, too.  I am actually far along in the interview process for 3 syndicators/development firms, so I will get even more experience in other cities supposing I get to choose one for employment (I am gainfully employed now, just expanding my horizons).  This year alone I have worked on deals worth $579M in Birmingham, Hartford, Knoxville, all 4 cities in FL, Greenville SC, Houston, Dallas, and Nashville, and I have either visited or studied those cities intensely as a result.  I have a general awareness about what is going on in more than just my little world.

The fact that I piss people off on here actually is a source of pride and frustration.  The environment down there is just different.  I don't know when you lived in Atlanta or what you do or what you did up here, but I also don't know why you moved down there.  From my POV, if I'm changing cities I'm certainly going to bounce up to the next level, aka Chicago, LA, or New York, not Jacksonville.  I don't know your experiences and I don't see how you don't see the bond Atlanta has with Savannah, not that I care.  Saint Augustine, as I said before, is the seat of 200,000 people.  It also spends at least double what the city of Jacksonville spends on marketing itself.  I think if there is any way to get tourism up in Jax, it is to piggyback on with St. Augustine.  That would be the relationship benefit there.

In GA's case, it is a slightly different scenario where there is one major city, but the ties to Savannah are there.  The port is as much Atlanta's as it is Savannah's.  It benefits Atlanta more actually than it benefits Savannah.  Many of the players in Savannah went to college in and around Atlanta, and families often have members in both cities.  Everything that has been created in Savannah, like SCAD, has also branched off in Atlanta.  There is no political animosity between the two cities, and their economic and political interests are closely aligned.  They have a symbiosis.  The other relationship would be Athens to Atlanta because of UGA and proximity.  There is no "relationship" with Augusta, Columbus, Albany, or Valdosta.  There is actually very public distrust and enmity between most of small town and rural GA and Atlanta with the notable exception of Savannah and of course Athens.

The dialogue up here is one where even casually residents are comparing places and things to Chicago, DC, and New York.  There is never a sense of satisfaction.  There is always talk even on a Friday night about what's going on, what should be done differently, what can be done differently.  Editorials focus on comparisons and how to improve.  Comparisons are usually with other cities doing things right, ranging from Nashville to New York, never Jacksonville.  In Jacksonville the self esteem and self awareness is so lacking that people delude themselves into thinking all sorts of things (like the delusion that Jacksonville is some hub of medical innovation and biotech startups) and any negative feedback is met with suspicion and defense.  Another population difference is that for some reason people from Jacksonville remember all the negatives of where they came from and forget all the positives, always return if they are from Jax originally, and/or never leave in the first place.  For a city with 45% of the population from some other state, it's amazing the level of public disinterest there is in improving the place.

The same ratio holds up here - about 45% from out of state.  Instead of the New Yorkers coming down here and saying we don't want it to be like it was up there, they basically make it like it was up there.  It's just a different mentality.  My mentality used to be of someone raised in Ortega and 100% Jacksonvillian.  Now I am basically almost losing all touch with my hometown and my interest has waned significantly.  Can't imagine returning...ever, at this point, but the fact I'm still on this board means a part of me does actually want to see better for my hometown.  I do have to bear a few days down there here and there, so might as well hope for an interesting time while I'm there

As an analogy, we are talking about the CoRK district.  Right now it is an ugly area of decrepit homes and non-historical single story warehouses (and vacant lots).  Some artists work in one and there are two very popular breweries in two others, so there is something there.  Instead of just pointing out that "there is something there," why not look at the stories of theoretically similar districts in other cities?  I, of course, posted an article about the history of the ACAC on Atlanta's westside, because I see a potentially similar path for CoRK and the impact the art community can have on it.  I think using one of the most successful urban re-use/warehouse districts in the south, created over the course of 25+ years with the artists as the pioneers, serves as a beneficial model.  Not a "down on Jacksonville" thing.  If the use of that article pissed you off somehow, then you are simply catching feelings all over the place.  You would be the type of person that could not take life in a larger, busier city as it would break you into thousands of pieces and then spit you back down to Jax.

Up here people like myself are intently involved in building up the Midtown Mile.  We are looking at modeling the process that has tranformed the Magnificent Mile in Chicago...over 45 years!  We are in the same boat...smaller cities like Jax SHOULD look at 2nd tier cities like Atlanta, which in turn are presumably looking at Gateway Markets like Chicago and DC.  This is not rocket science.

Links I found one day and forwarded on to a hoard of people here (and my uncle in Chicago who was an asset manager at Lincoln Property Company).

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/17/realestate/a-new-challenge-for-chicago-s-magnificent-mile.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/section/search?q=900 north michigan&mode=text

Aerials of the area from the late 70s and early 80s would blow you away...more surface parking than in Midtown Atlanta!  Anyway, this is what I do...GET USED TO IT.

Now today was a MetroJacksonville day for me, so you got a lot.  Perhaps that has you on edge

Could we, like, move this stuff to another thread? As much as I'm sure we all appreciate Simms letting us read the first chapter of his forthcoming autobiography, this thread is about Savannah.

[dougskiles]

^great idea.  We could have a "the world according to simms3 thread" and just automatically move all of these posts there.  That way when someone new comes along and wants to read about the topic of the thread, they don't get buried in all of that ... stuff.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Simms I certianly would not want to move to LA, I guess to each as own, but the Duval faithfuls are way to sensitive on here. Its really gotten out of hand. Anyway these threads are not meant for this city vs that city. Everybody has a right to thier opinion if you dont like it thats just to bad. Nice thread though always liked Savannah.

[I-10east]

Everybody does have a right to their opinion, but somehow on MJ, if a poster says something positive about Jax, and I negative poster reply with their opinion, it's acceptable; When a negative Jax poster says something, and a positive guy chimes in on that, then it's comments like "Everyone has a right to their opinion, if you don't like it, too bad etc".

It amazes me how many on MJ been here a long time, and say the same thing over and over again 'SJTC dreadful parking situation' blah blah ad nausem; I can see a newbie saying stuff like that; Look, yall can say the same thing over and over again, but it makes you look boring, I tell you that. Hell, atleast be funny, and creative with the negative comments, I laugh at some things like that. To each it's own, do what in the hell you wanna do like repeat the same thing over and over (Jax destroying old buildings for parking etc) if you want to. Just my 2.

[simms3]

Could we, like, move this stuff to another thread? As much as I'm sure we all appreciate Simms letting us read the first chapter of his forthcoming autobiography, this thread is about Savannah.

^great idea.  We could have a "the world according to simms3 thread" and just automatically move all of these posts there.  That way when someone new comes along and wants to read about the topic of the thread, they don't get buried in all of that ... stuff.

You know if you guys don't recall...I was one of the first posters on this thread.  I shared some pretty interesting slides about the design of Savannah.  I then made one point about the relationship between Atlanta and Savannah being symbiotic and beneficial to each, then alluding to a hope that a similarly beneficial and strong relationship can be formed between Jax and St. Aug.  I also made a point about SCAD and my hopes that Jacksonville institutions can find it in themselves to participate in the local economy more, just as SCAD has come to really play an integral role in Savannah's development.

Basically, I stayed on point, as I actually NORMALLY do!  My mere one sentence mention of Atlanta (in reference to Savannah) is what incited so much anger in this thread.  I'll humbly admit, I don't know who is more stupid and immature...some of the posters on MetroJax who don't really contribute much aside from their mostly uninformed opinions...often on other posters' opinions and solidly prepared and thought out posts, or my stupidity and immaturity for responding to such stupid replies and jabs.

Anyway, I guess I never contribute anything meaningful to this board.  I guess all the pictures I have posted of Jacksonville (hundreds) and other cities are worthless here (I certainly QUIT posting pics of Atlanta because it gave people heart attacks and I don't think I posted pics from my last trip to Chicago or DC...why bother?).  I'll quit giving up fairly inside information I come across in the real estate world.  All of that stuff is stupid and pointless anyway.  Jacksonville has nothing to learn from other cities, but if it does, the only person allowed to say so is The Lakelander (and he does a great job saying so ).  I'll quit telling my friends about this board.  I'll quit linking to it and giving it visibility to others via Facebook and other blogs/forums.  Apparently I'm a dumb, worthless MetroJax poster.  This is about all I can take because the people that bitch at me the most are the people who have the lowest average quality contribution per post of just about anyone on this whole forum.  Forget the fact that I was actually posting on metrojax.com before the upgrade to this site years ago.  I'm not seasoned enough.  BTW I really don't feel bad.  I'm enjoying this...especially because I'm not an everyday poster yet I've probably posted 15 times today 

[simms3]

On another note, MetroJacksonville is actually transitioning to something more of a platform for stupid liberal sympathy to OWS and a platform to speak out against cop violence.  It's hardly what I would call a high level discussion on urban development, real estate, planning, and architecture.  That stuff is quickly buried beneath political debates.  Just saying.

[tufsu1]

simms, if Atlanta is soooooo awesome, how come the #2 ranked city for people leaving Atlanta to move to is Jacksonville (I think you posted the article last week)?