Occupy Wall Street vs the Tea Party

[FayeforCure]

Well luckily OWS isn't against having a job or for messing with police cars.  I'm guessing now that it has been a few hours since your terrible post you are probably feeling a little guilt and shame about it. So I won't dwell on it any longer.

Well somebody is vandalizing police cars... ATMs, smashing windows, during the protest (at least in Oakland).  Are these people simply fringe elements?

i think the unrest started when a cop shot a veteran in the head, Bridge Troll.  In fact if you read the news, a lot of the smashing is being done by outraged veterans.

Another possibility is that anti-OWS forces have planted vandals among the crowd in order to distract from an otherwise peaceful movement.

You know how it is..........the status quo folks would like nothing better than to "shoot the messenger" rather than  to really address our problems.

Gee faye... you dont suppose that sort of skullduggery could have happened at the tea party rallies... whoda thunk it...

Gun toting, hate-filled folks don't need to be planted at tea party rallies. They are a natural in that movement.

Not to say there aren't many decent folks among the tea partier..........we just don't see them out there as much.

Even here locally they went beserk at a supposedly civil meeting of the St Johns County Board of County Commissioners at the mere suggestion in support for the concept of a St Augustine National Historic Park and National Seashore:

County rejects national park, seashore


Posted: November 2, 2011 - 12:47am


By PETER GUINTA



peter.guinta@staugustine.com


A proposal to turn over 133,000 acres of St. Johns County, water management and state lands to the federal government for creation of a national historic park and seashore was denied unanimously Tuesday by the County Commission.

Activist Ed Slavin of St. Augustine, who presented the idea Tuesday to the County Commission, said he only wanted the board to endorse the concept. But after the vote, he said he wasn’t deterred by the 5-0 vote against it.

“We shall persevere and will be back,” he said late Tuesday. “Let the people vote.”

He plans to lobby the County Commission, requesting them to allow a referendum on the 2012 ballot.

“Our small businesses are hurting,” he said.

However, his idea was attacked by current and former members of the St. Augustine Tea Party.

For example, Marty Miller compared Slavin’s campaign to those of Hitler and his fellow Nazis who sought domination. He told the commission, “It’s all right the way it is. Don’t lose local control.”

Another Tea Party leader said if the board voted for Slavin’s idea, they would be committing “treason.”

Slavin asked the commission to enforce its rules of civil discourse. But no one was censured.

Later, he said that accusation especially galled him because his paratrooper father fought Nazis in Sicily during World War II.

Former state representative candidate Faye Armitage spoke for the idea, saying, “We have to do everything to protect our shoreline. There are 53 state parks slated for closure. The best way to protect our natural resources is to designate them as national parks.”

Robert Johnson recalled the Interior Department’s enforcement of a driving ban on the Fort Matanzas National Monument grounds.

“I have seen and felt first-hand what happens when you turn over your wallet to the federal government,” he said. “I don’t want a Washington, D.C., bureaucrat telling our elected representatives how to manage our resources.”

Dan Holiday, in business 53 years in St. Augustine, said, “Everything the federal government touches becomes a disaster. They use heavy-handed tactics, and no one wants to pay fees to use our beach. If you do this, it’s permanent. When it’s gone, it’s gone.”

Doug Russo, a local pastor, said that the idea “is a step toward world citizenry.”

Tea Party organizer Randy Covington said Slavin’s idea of “a carbon-neutral transportation system” is a dream and that local governments would be “rendered impotent and be subject to government bureaucrats. Reject this plan outright. Form a foundation, buy or acquire property, and then donate it to the federal government.”

Slavin said this idea was introduced in 1939 and was approved, though that approval was later withdrawn. “This is the first time in 71 years that people are talking about the St. Augustine Historical Park and National Seashore,” he said. “We’re not talking about bossing people around. We’re talking about preserving what we have forever. There are 400 national parks in America.”

Commissioner Mark Miner said the National Park Service has a $3 billion maintenance backlog and spends 90 percent of its budget on construction and 10 percent on resource management.

“The best government is the one closest to the people,” he said.

Commissioner Ron Sanchez said, “Our own kids are broke because of the federal government. Our county and state parks are run better than anywhere. This program will cost us a fortune. If the federal government closed one of our beaches, we’d lose half our tourists. And I’m not giving up control of our water supply to anybody.”

Commissioner Cyndi Stevenson made the shortest comment of all.

She said, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2011-11-01/county-rejects-national-park-seashore

BTW Commisioner Ron Sanchez is wrong about state and county parks being better run: 53 state parks were slated to be paved over with golf courses under Tricky Rick Scott's leadership...........it is dangerous to leave  state parks in the hands of corrupt local politicians.

[BridgeTroll]

Not to say there aren't many decent folks among the tea partier..........

What an awesome and generous compliment!  Wow...     

[finehoe]

Those vets should be arrested and prosecuted.

As should those policemen who attacked the protesters.

[BridgeTroll]

Those vets should be arrested and prosecuted.

As should those policemen who attacked the protesters.

Unlike the protestors... I am sure their actions are being reviewed for misconduct.

[FayeforCure]

Those vets should be arrested and prosecuted.

As should those policemen who attacked the protesters.

Unlike the protestors... I am sure their actions are being reviewed for misconduct.

Oh really? You actually think police would think they might have done anything wrong?

They never bothered to launch an investgation on their own. It wasn't until a week later after a complaint from a citizen that they finally launched an investgation, and only for their attack on Scott Olson:

Occupy Oakland: police to be investigated over Scott Olsen injury

Citizens' Police Review Board to launch formal investigation as Oakland prepares for general strike on Wednesday


reddit this


Adam Gabbatt in Oakland
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 1 November 2011 14.58 EDT
Article history



Occupy Oakland protester Scott Olsen is seen lying on the ground after he was apparently hit by a projectile at a protest. Photograph: screengrab via YouTube


Oakland police are to be the subject of a formal investigation after Iraq war veteran Scott Olsen suffered a fractured skull at an Occupy Oakland protest last week.

Oakland's Citizens' Police Review Board is launching the investigation after it received a complaint on Friday. Police in Oakland are bracing themselves for a general strike on Wednesday, which has been announced by the city's Occupy movement and is expected to cause disruption across the city.

Olsen, 24, was seriously injured after allegedly being hit on the head by a police projectile. He is still in hospital and unable to talk, communicating only through short written messages.

A source at the review board said the investigation will begin in the next few days, and is expected to last "several months".

"We're reviewing the information we have at the moment," the source told the Guardian.

The board received the complaint from a member of the public. The complaint "relates specifically to Scott Olsen", and was not filed by a member of Olsen's family.

An investigator has yet to be assigned to the case, but will be "within the next few days", the source said.

"I think it's a wonderful thing," said Alan Brill, who acts as a spokesman for Occupy Oakland.

"Just like every once in a while people do things that are wrong from our side, there is a small percentage of police that are out of control, and I'm glad they're being investigated."

Olsen, a former marine who served two tours of Iraq, was injured on Tuesday 25 October as police cleared the Occupy Oakland camp from its base at Frank Ogawa plaza, outside Oakland city hall.

Police used teargas and "less lethal" weapons to clear the plaza. Olsen was apparently struck in the forehead, knocking him to the ground. Video footage shows a police officer throwing an explosive towards a group of protesters who went to Olsen's aid.

More than 15 police agencies were involved in the operation that day, including San Francisco sheriffs.

There has been speculation on social media sites that it was a San Francisco sheriff who injured Olsen, with some Twitter and Facebook accounts naming an officer. However, sheriff spokeswoman Eileen Hirst said that while a platoon of 35 sheriffs did attend the Oakland operation, none of them were carrying teargas or less lethal weapons.

Hirst said the San Francisco sheriffs' involvement in the operation in Oakland was being reviewed internally, but none of the 35 officers who attended on 25 October had been suspended.

Thousands of Occupy protesters are expected to gather in Oakland for the general strike and mass day of action on Wednesday. The strike aims to "shut down" the city, culminating with a march to the Port of Oakland to prevent the transit of cargo.

"Oakland was the site of the last general strike in the US," said protester Tim Simons, at a press conference on Monday.

"On Wednesday, we're going to make history once again. We're going to make Oakland proud."

• This article was amended on 4 November 2011 to add the word "allegedly" in the following sentence: "Olsen, 24, was seriously injured after allegedly being hit on the head by a police projectile."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/01/occupy-oakland-police-scott-olsen

[FayeforCure]

Those vets should be arrested and prosecuted.

As should those policemen who attacked the protesters.

Unlike the protestors... I am sure their actions are being reviewed for misconduct.

Well, you are misinformed. Every day police gets away with brutality and false arrest:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Zgr3DiqWYCI?

[FayeforCure]

I think our government considers the Wall Street banksters too big to jail.

I like that:

Banks are too big to fail
and
Banksters are too big to jail

THAT would make a really good OWS sign!

As that represents the essence of control and dysfunction in the world:

The feeling of outrage: OWS wants an end to the mess crime on Wall Street

No One was punished for creating the economic tsunami!

http://www.youtube.com/v/cG_TKAJyV6k?

[Dog Walker]

Here's a story from Nashville where the police arrested a reporter who videotaped the whole thing without the policeman knowing it.  The policeman could be heard telling someone what to charge the reporter with.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/archives/2011/10/29/scene-reporter-captures-own-arrest-on-video-refutes-state-troopers-charges

[NotNow]

Two things from me....

1.  I understand the frustration with disparity of income and the concentration of wealth.  I do not understand (or I am not aware of) the criminal charges being discussed and exactly who should be charged.  If there are specific charges against specific persons then I would like to hear them...and I would like to know where any prosecution stands.  If this is just a general call of "crimes" by "bankers" or "the 1%" then those calls are just rhetoric and I will disregard them.

2.  Scott Olsen was reportedly struck in the head by a "launched" (not hand thrown) tear gas canister.  Any investigation would supposedly revolve around the aim point of the launching Officer.  That investigation will take time and I would wait for the result before commenting any further.  Obviously, the purpose of less lethal weapons is to reduce the chances of injury or death.   

"Crowd Control" is a broad term which encompasses many different scenarios.  Even when well trained (which is not often), it a difficult operation to successfully complete when the "crowd" is hostile.  Small transgressions by either side can quickly escalate into injuries to both citizens and police.  For this reason, police officials are hesitant to engage in such operations until required to do so by civilian authority.  That compulsion to act is most often the result of excessive property damage, injuries to innocent citizens, or a combination of the two. 

I have not been present at any Occupy event other than here in Jax, so I will not comment on events that I did not witness.

[FayeforCure]

NotNow, crowd control can indeed be difficult and police is used to "take control," but this is a quote I couldn't agree with more regarding the more restrained appropriate response for police:

“The Supreme Court has said the police must go after only the agitators,” he says. “Otherwise, it would be a simple matter for someone to shut an entire protest down by just planting a few hooligans.

No, you can’t go into these situations wholesale with bean bags and tear gas.”

- James Lafferty, executive director of the National Lawyers Guild of Los Angeles, a human rights bar association that facilitates public demonstrations.

http://www.minnpost.com/worldcsm/2011/11/04/32950/occupy_wall_street_clash_in_oakland_how_should_police_handle_protests

[Dog Walker]

NN, the Occupy protests here in Jax have been very peaceful, loud, fun and very respectful of the JSO officers present.  Everybody has been very relaxed and nobody, LEO's or protestors has tried to provoke the other.

Cool heads are prevailing on both sides.  The sole exception has been Councilman Redman.

[BridgeTroll]

NN, the Occupy protests here in Jax have been very peaceful, loud, fun and very respectful of the JSO officers present.  Everybody has been very relaxed and nobody, LEO's or protestors has tried to provoke the other.

Cool heads are prevailing on both sides.  The sole exception has been Councilman Redman.

This is what I observed at the one protest I attended and I applaud the efforts of the local OWS group to keep things civil.  This is NOT the case in more than a few others... including Oakland.

[NotNow]

I agree that local Occupy events have been peaceful, I only mentioned them to make the point that I have not witnessed the violence being discussed here.  Therefore I cannot fault one side or the other.

Faye, I am not sure what decision your quote is referencing.  The quote seems to be too specific to fit all situations.  "Agitators" are not always obvious and "crowds" can be destructive, damaging, and violent in themselves.  As previously stated, "crowd" or "riot" control is a VERY broad subject.  Volumes have been filled with experiences and theory on the subject.  It would be impossible to address all theoreticals in a forum such as this.

[FayeforCure]

I agree that local Occupy events have been peaceful, I only mentioned them to make the point that I have not witnessed the violence being discussed here.  Therefore I cannot fault one side or the other.

Today's technology records situations so we CAN indeed find fault, whether we are there personally or not. The Rodney Kings are no longer considered isolated incidents. The question is do we WANT to find fault or just acquiesce to authority.

Kudos to local police that have so far been supportive of OWS activities here.

[second_pancake]

View this (all 4 of the videos, unedited):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGL-Ex1CD1c

And READ this...ALL of it:

http://occupywallst.org/

This is their manifesto:  Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.

Read THIS...ALL of it (I did not make this up, it's directly from their site.  I even receive updated emails as changes are made):
http://piratenpad.de/cyG2aD0YGO

Now, after reading and viewing all of that, if you claim that this movement is still "for the people" and that they are "not anti-capitalist", you need a serious reality check.

Yes, there are some legitimate grievances.  We have not been a truly capalist society.  We have been moving more toward Socialism every day and we see where it's getting us, 9% unemployment, government entities running our banks and financial system (read Fannie, Freddie and Ginne), corporations with the money and know-how to create jobs in our country taking them elsewhere because it's the only way they can make a profit and continue to grow their business (i.e. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, etc.)

Incidentally, I am in the top 5% of earners and tax payers in this country.  I work for a major wall-street bank.  I earn a great income and am proud of the effort and the struggle I went through to get to where I am now.  I have never asked for a hand-out...ever.  No, I did not come from an affluent family.  I actually was kicked out of my house and lived on my own since the age of 16.  I completed high-school through a high-school completion program while working a fulltime crap job to pay for my crap apartment and transportation (I took the bus...in Jacksonville as i didn't own a car until I was 18 and could pay for one myself).  I didn't get to attend college until I was well into my 20's and it was a community college at that, of which I paid for on my own.  Anyone who claims ownership to ANY of my money can seriously kiss my ass.  I EARNED every bit of what I have.  You can slant the Occupy beliefs any way you want and state that they are only agains the "big banks" or only against "big corporations", etc., however as you can see from their official postings, this is not the case.  They are against anyone who has more than them and they think people have the "right" to be happy.  YOU make your own happiness, it is not reliant on anyone else.  Additionally,your right is the PURSUIT of happiness.  They refuse to persue anything but other people's wealth.

It is the INDIVIDUAL that is the hero.  The government's role is to protect us from force in our pursuit for our personal happiness and well-being.  They are not and never should be the force nor should they dictate what they feel is just for us.  Additionally, no one person or group has any right so ever to force his/her will upon on another human being, period.  Those are inherent rights as well as constitutional rights. Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).

They say that money is evil and the corporations are evil.  Evil requires the sanction of the victim.  I am not a victim.  No one forced me to take the jobs I've had.  No one has forced me to invest the way I have.  I alone made these decisions.

If you take anything at all from this, remember this:  Where there is sacrifice, there is someone there collecting the sacrificial offerings.  Where there is service, there is someone being served.  The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.  The Occupy folks would gladly see our system changed to that of a Communist society in which they dictate what money goes where and who earns it (yes, they actually created a list of occupations and the associated incomes...it's on the website under "shared documents").  They are, or whomever they appoint, is the dictator and EVERYONE loses their rights and must comply or be punished.  This is the way it works.

Wealth is the capacity of man's power to think.  When we have lost our wealth, we have lost all thought and have become a complacent society run on whim: Tribal.

Who is John Galt?