Littlepage: We need to clear downtown of hobos

[NotNow]

Just a few points:

1.  The Sheriff is targeting that relatively small group that are aggressive panhandlers or commit minor crimes in order to either satisfy a chemical addiction problem or a psychological problem (some would argue both).  Many of these persons are not actually homeless, they live locally but prefer to participate in this parasitic lifestyle.  The Sheriff knows this and he is attempting to make such behavior more inconvenient for those who participate in it as well as those who enable them.  He is not targeting those that are not breaking laws, are attempting to improve their condition, or are mentally ill.

2.  The "remote misdemeanor release site" that he proposed is NOT a housing center, but rather a processing center for release from custody.  This could be collocated with a misdemeanor court that tries these types of cases.

3. ALL pre trial prisoners are held in the Pre Trial Detention Facility downtown.  Once tried and sentenced, prisoners are sent to differing facilities depending on their sentence.  Those sentenced to time up to one year for misdemeanors without special conditions are sent to the pea farm at Lannie Road.  I believe that the corrections Chief posts here and she could give the exact policies.

4.  I will renew my call for a return to the State Hospital system for the mentally ill.  As a previous poster noted, some people, usually due to mental illness, will never be able to exist without help.  We should employ professionals to decide which of these folks can live in the general public with support, and which need permanent housing and structure in their lives.  I firmly believe that the costs of such a system would be less that the current system not to mention the compassion we should have for these citizens.

5.  To argue here over political parties or religion, or to argue over "who does more for the homeless" is a waste of all of our time and energy.  I would suggest that we stick to explaining the facts, as Sara did, or offer our opinions of what steps should be taken to help solve the problem.

[NotNow]

Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

[hillary supporter]

Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

I'm confused. The thread is about the article Littlepage wrote. I mean it is an opinon piece, although im reading it more unbaised in that it covered  a public meeting.
I dont have issues with his article at all. Its with the sheriff ( are they homeless or hoboes?) or Councilman Redman ( your behavior at this public event should assure all that you are not to be taken seroiusly).

[uptowngirl]

I'm with the Sheriff on this one.  He's not talking about the temporarily homeless who need help getting back on their feet.  I don't think it makes me a Nazi for thinking this particular population should go where they won't disturb others.

I also support  Sheriff Rutherford on this. I was there when he gave a presentation to the Board members of Downtown Vision. There will be many components to the puzzle. The discussions are happening and I'd like to participate and possibly be involved in Making it Happen. I'm looking at this in terms of positive benefits. Obviously its not working.   

Relocation camps have been used to either hide away or eliminate people "society" doesn't like or want to see for hundreds if not thousands of years.  Each and every time, regardless of the time period, regardless of the initial reason, they become a huge black mark in the history books.  Certainly it makes sense to have Jacksonville continue it's downward spiral into the blackness as this city has consistently done the right thing to end up NOT a prosperous and progressive place to live.   

When smart and supposedly intelligent people fail to see where the real issues lie, there is little hope for the future.

Absolutely! If you do not have a home, apartment, trailer, or any personal place to lie your head at night you should be given a free pass on your behavior- such as defecating and urinating in public, following women with children around the parking lot screaming at them for money, slamming a brick into the back of someones head because they do not give it to you, trashing public spaces, breaking into vacant homes and setting them on fire. YES YES YES!!! And as long as we are sanctioning this behavior, we should let EVERYONE act this way and get a free pass. I mean heck, if I am downtown and there are not any bathrooms available and I have to go....well I am in the same plight as the homeless living there so I should be able to drop my pants on Main st also and ya'll should be just fine with that. I also think you OWE me some money because I am thirsty and I know you have it, and if you do not hand it over I have a right to harass and follow you around until you are miserable.

Quit lumping all homeless into the same group. As with all segments of society you have the good, marginal, and bad. Ultimately it is the worst kind of double standard to sanction this type of behavior and say it is OK because you happen to be homeless, or an addict, or your mother beat you as a child. You certainly are not doing them any favors or helping them out of their situation by allowing them to not take personal responsibility for their actions.  Sanctioning of this type of behavior, and lumping in this bad segment with the homeless family that just lost their job and house  is what desensitizes the general public to the specific plight of the homeless, which if course is the precursor to the dreaded camps you speak of.

[NotNow]

Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

I'm confused. The thread is about the article Littlepage wrote. I mean it is an opinon piece, although im reading it more unbaised in that it covered  a public meeting.
I dont have issues with his article at all. Its with the sheriff ( are they homeless or hoboes?) or Councilman Redman ( your behavior at this public event should assure all that you are not to be taken seroiusly).

Oh, I don't mean on just this subject, I mean NEVER pay any attention to Littlepage. 

And I thought the Sheriff was very clear in who and what he meant by "hobo's".... see point #1 above.

[strider]

Like I said:

Certainly it makes sense to have Jacksonville continue it's downward spiral into the blackness as this city has consistently done the right thing to end up NOT a prosperous and progressive place to live.   

When smart and supposedly intelligent people fail to see where the real issues lie, there is little hope for the future.

Worth repeating and worth reading:

Truths:

1) Churches, including FBC, do/give the most to help our poor and indigent downtown population.

2) This is not a Republican or Democrat issue, quit trying to make it one.

3) "Hoboes" are in downtowns of every major city and that is where they need to be to access clustered support services.

4) Downtown is not suffering because of the homeless, it is suffering because of poor leadership and unintelligent planners.

5) People don't come downtown not because there are homeless people and a perception of crime, but because there is nothing for them to do or see there.

6) Ronald Littlepage is a well known Democrat, once again, quit trying to make this a partisan issue.  He actually did not form an opinion as he normally does.  He simply reported on discussions being had and agreed that having the discussion was progress for the issue.

7) New York, DC, and San Francisco have some of the densest and most present "hobo" populations of any city in the world.  In San Fran it is so bad that people always comment on it.  Somehow this does not stop any of these cities from being world class, vibrant centers of commerce and cosmopolitan life.  It also does not diminish the insane numbers of tourists and visitors each gets.

I don't suppose anyone has noticed that when there IS something for people to do Downtown, there ARE people walking around and having fun, even though those terrible hobos are there, not relocated to somewhere else. 

The few who won't go downtown because of or are "scared off" by those relatively few hobos are not worth worrying about and will go downtown anyway when there are more things to do there.

[Scarlettjax]

It's a tough problem with no easy answers.

The people - the homeless, hoboes, bums, ne'er-do-wells or whatever you choose to call them, are like you and me- they are, or were, someone's son, daughter, sister, brother, dad, mother.

Most of them have lost their family support systems either through mental illness, substance abuse or a combination thereof.   Heck, I'm basically lazy, but the things and lifestyle I like require me to work, so I do.  So do most of us, and my work, although often like slamming my head into a concrete block wall repeatedly, is still fulfilling in a masochistic way.

I think the Sheriff may be trying to focus on dealing with individuals and their problems, and addressing those in such a way as to either provide help, or provide an incentive to look elsewhere for softer targets.

There is no absolute when dealing with human problems.  We are all individuals, and have unique needs and motivators, based on our experiences in life.  But, we have a tendancy to think that everyone is just like us, and what would motivate us, would do the same to others.  Jailing most of the homeless is simply a good night's sleep to them.

And I'm kinda thinking the nice folks living on the more rural stretches of Lem Turner and Lannie Road would have a little something to say about a line of releases from the P-Farm knocking on their doors for a handout or breaking into their storage sheds on the way to I-295.  Just as you would if we released the time-ups in the back of your 'hood and told them to get back the best way they could.

Whatever the answer is, and I don't have it, nor does anyone else because it's far from one-size-fits-all, it's something we need to determine as a community.  What will we tolerate, what will we remove, and above all, what will we pay to do it.  Because nothing in life is free. 

[hillary supporter]

Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

I'm confused. The thread is about the article Littlepage wrote. I mean it is an opinon piece, although im reading it more unbaised in that it covered  a public meeting.
I dont have issues with his article at all. Its with the sheriff ( are they homeless or hoboes?) or Councilman Redman ( your behavior at this public event should assure all that you are not to be taken seroiusly).

Oh, I don't mean on just this subject, I mean NEVER pay any attention to Littlepage. 

And I thought the Sheriff was very clear in who and what he meant by "hobo's".... see point #1 above.

Yes, indeed he was.

[Ernest Street]

I am not taking a side here, but stating the obvious.
The sheriff in his own way might also have been specifically targeting those seasonal Northern Homeless who travel down here for our 40 degree wet winter.He did say HOBO didn't he?
When I volunteered at city rescue mission at least 5 men told me they "were given a bus ticket from Philly/Detroit/Cleveland/Chicago to just get out of town" whether you believe their story is up to you. But we might be helping out more than we have living here..taxing our already affected social services.
It would be interesting to hear how these visitors behave amongst the true local economy victims that we see living alongside the Drug/Alcohol panhandling Zombies. (which in itself would be a story)

[Timkin]

This is such a delicate topic and  very interesting  points of view...

I will wholeheartedly agree with the posting that said , but by the Grace of God, it could be any one of us.

I also believe there are homeless that are in that position by circumstance, some that did not want to work and wants and expects a hand out.   Still there are others as stated with addictions and mental disorders... There are many varying degrees of reasons  and no easy solution.     All of them are human beings and should be treated as such...not moved to a facility near Trailridge or out in no man's land to fend for themselves..  None of us would want to be in that position. 

It is unfortunate that buildings like the remaining vacant Job Corps building,  and the like cannot be utilized to help those who are homeless who TRULY WANT to better their lives.

I had no idea that First Baptist Church and alike churches did as much as they do for the homeless, and I think it is wonderful and truly a Christian thing to truly help and not judge the down-trodden.  It makes me realize that I can do more to help and probably so can many. 

Finger pointing ,and thinking of these people as less than human and a nuisance to society will not solve the problem.

[uptowngirl]

Criminals, whether homeless or not- are criminals and they don't get a free pass just because they are homeless. Being "down on your luck" does not give you the right to be abusive to others, and break the law.

I think it is cruel to treat all homeless as one. Imagine a parent being homeless. They not only have to find food and shelter daily for themselves and their children, but there is a HUGE saftey issue now because we have concentrated 99% of services all together in one spot forcing a one size fits all solution on the total population. A homeless family has specific needs different from that of a homeless drug addict. An elderly homeless woman has different needs from a homeless hobo from NY given a bus ticket to come to Jacksonville for the summer.

One other thought, I just can't let pass without comment:

  "And I'm kinda thinking the nice folks living on the more rural stretches of Lem Turner and Lannie Road would have a little something to say about a line of releases from the P-Farm knocking on their doors for a handout or breaking into their storage sheds on the way to I-295.  Just as you would if we released the time-ups in the back of your 'hood and told them to get back the best way they could."

Are the good folks of downtown and the urban core just not quite as good as the good folks of Lem Turner?  Concentration of 99% of the homeless population in one area is not the right thing to do, it is not right for the homeless, or the residents whose backyard they are living in.

[mtraininjax]

Finger pointing ,and thinking of these people as less than human and a nuisance to society will not solve the problem.

All homeless are welcome at Annie Lytle, if its full, it cannot be torn down! 

[Ocklawaha]

Ron Littlepage is paid to be a word smith and I would think would have to have more then a little skill as a reporter but he blew this one. Perhaps he just used the Sheriffs terminology but if he did, he perpetuated an error and he of all people should know the difference.

All Ron had to do was google the term 'hobo' to learn that the Sheriff is targeting bums, not Bo's.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A hobo is a term which is often applied to a migratory worker or homeless vagabond, often penniless. The term originated in the Westernâ€"probably Northwesternâ€"United States during the last decade of the 19th century. Unlike 'tramps', who work only when they are forced to, and 'bums', who do not work at all, 'hobos' are workers who wander.

Tramps and hobos are commonly lumped together, but in their own sight they are sharply differentiated. A hobo or bo is simply a migratory laborer; he may take some longish holidays, but soon or late he returns to work. A tramp never works if it can be avoided; he simply travels. Lower than either is the bum, who neither works nor travels, save when impelled to motion by the police.
SOURCE: Mencken, H.L. (1937). "On the road again".

Hobo King and Queen, 2011,  Uncle Freddie and Minneapolis Jewel.

Grand Head Pipe Charles Noe came to Britt in 1900 as the representative of the Tourist Union 63. He was the spokesman, the decision maker for the group of nomadic laborers. He said "yes" to the Britt businessmen's invitation and brought the hobo convention to Britt that year.

There have been many decisions made by hobo leaders ince, but the hobo king's authority is limited to say the least. The king is the hobo public image. For a year, as he travels the country, he will seek out newspaper offices, hospitals or railroad gatherings in search of publicity for the hobo culture.

Kings and queens often make pledges during their campaign speech on the convention stage that they fulfill during their term.

Steamtrain vowed to visit VA hospitals and retirement homes. He did that all across the USA. Minneapolis Jewel promised to plant shade trees in Municipal Park during one very hot convention. She did.

Blue Moon asked the crowd to strive for peace among all God's creatures and her works over the following months reflected that goal.

Hobo (ethical) code

An ethical code was created by Tourist Union #63 during its 1889 National Hobo Convention in St. Louis Missouri.This code was voted upon as a concrete set of laws to govern the Nation-wide Hobo Body; it reads this way:
1.Decide your own life, don't let another person run or rule you.
2.When in town, always respect the local law and officials, and try to be a gentleman at all times.
3.Don't take advantage of someone who is in a vulnerable situation, locals or other hobos.
4.Always try to find work, even if temporary, and always seek out jobs nobody wants. By doing so you not only help a business along, but ensure employment should you return to that town again.
5.When no employment is available, make your own work by using your added talents at crafts.
6.Do not allow yourself to become a stupid drunk and set a bad example for locals' treatment of other hobos.
7.When jungling in town, respect handouts, do not wear them out, another hobo will be coming along who will need them as bad, if not worse than you.
8.Always respect nature, do not leave garbage where you are jungling.
9.If in a community jungle, always pitch in and help.
10.Try to stay clean, and boil up wherever possible.
11.When traveling, ride your train respectfully, take no personal chances, cause no problems with the operating crew or host railroad, act like an extra crew member.
12.Do not cause problems in a train yard, another hobo will be coming along who will need passage through that yard.
13.Do not allow other hobos to molest children, expose all molesters to authorities, they are the worst garbage to infest any society.
14.Help all runaway children, and try to induce them to return home.
15.Help your fellow hobos whenever and wherever needed, you may need their help someday.
16.If present at a hobo court and you have testimony, give it. Whether for or against the accused, your voice counts!

Now if you think this is just a thing of the past, tell it to the Hobo King or Queen, elected on September 8, 2011, at the annual convention in Britt, Iowa. The small town of Britt, Iowa is best known for hosting the 111-year-old National Hobo Convention. The annual happening is a celebration of making light of homelessness, and includes events such as the Hobo Sunday Outdoor Church Service, the Hobo Auction, the Hobo Royalty coronation (featuring the “coffee can crown”), and other depressing euphemisms.

This years Hobo King and Queen, Uncle Freddie and Minneapolis Jewel (their hobo names) both hail from Minnesota. Uncle Freddie was knighted Emperor of the North. Perhaps Jacksonville could use some of this bad press for a good cause and knight our own Emperor of the South.  I'm sure the queen (yeah the real one in England) would approve, since she more or less started this tradition. 

I think we'd all agree that tossing out our bums would be a good thing, our tramps are more likely in need of some redirection, but our true hobos are harmless at worst, and beneficial at best.

OCKLAWAHA

[ricker]

^^^ Thanks for providing such differentiation.
Snobbery is far worse than ignorance.

[danno]

I am not taking a side here, but stating the obvious.
The sheriff in his own way might also have been specifically targeting those seasonal Northern Homeless who travel down here for our 40 degree wet winter.He did say HOBO didn't he?
When I volunteered at city rescue mission at least 5 men told me they "were given a bus ticket from Philly/Detroit/Cleveland/Chicago to just get out of town" whether you believe their story is up to you. But we might be helping out more than we have living here..taxing our already affected social services.
It would be interesting to hear how these visitors behave amongst the true local economy victims that we see living alongside the Drug/Alcohol panhandling Zombies. (which in itself would be a story)

I volunteer once a month at the City Rescue Mission and hear the same thing about them being given bus tickets from up north. After serving we spend a couple of hours sitting and talking at I am in awe at the wide range of stories that I hear.