What to do about Hemming Plaza?

[thelakelander]

It’s an issue that has been recognized, discussed and studied for at least 50 years and it came up again Wednesday at Downtown Vision Inc.’s quarterly operations meeting.
The issue is making Hemming Plaza, the public park space in the middle of Downtown bordered by Duval, Laura, Monroe and Hogan streets, more appealing to people who work Downtown or come to the neighborhood to shop, eat or visit the Main Library and the Museum of Contemporary Art.

Many of those people perceive Hemming Plaza as a place that is not safe, ridden with crime and generally a place to avoid.

The most common complaint is the number of homeless people who spend most of the day at the tables and chairs and the behavior, some of which is against the law, of a minority of the people in that group.

Dan Macdonald, Council member Denise Lee’s executive assistant, attended the meeting Wednesday.

He reported about a meeting called Sept. 28 by Lee and Council member Robin Lumb to invite Downtown business owners and other stakeholders to discuss the topic of how the park is being used and to explore ways to improve the experience of the park for the general public.

“The park is what needs to be addressed, not the homeless people,” said Macdonald.

He said comments from that meeting included that many people don’t use the park because the tables and chairs are occupied by people who use homeless shelters.

“One suggestion was to provide a day center for the people in the shelters, but there no money for that now,” Macdonald said.

Another issue was food distribution by church groups and others who take it upon themselves to give out food in Hemming Plaza, an activity that requires a City permit.

Macdonald said other cities have outlawed feeding people in public parks and “well-meaning people should take food to the shelters.”

Another suggestion from Lee and Lumb’s meeting was to remove the tables and chairs from Hemming Plaza to discourage people from playing chess, checkers and cards.

That would eliminate some of the gathering areas, Macdonald said. “But there’s still ample seating along the edges of the fountains.”

Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2011-10-13

[duvaldude08]

I thought there was a Day Shelter being built by the Schulz-Bacher? I thought that was already in the works?

[coredumped]

Maybe I'm desensitized, but I've never been in fear for my safety at Hemming Plaza. There's always people at the library, Moca and city hall. There's also usually a hotdog vendor and a few ambassadors around. Yes, there are a lot of homeless there, but what do you want to do, bus them out (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2006-12-28/news/MVHOMELESS28_1_michael-chitwood-feeding-the-homeless-daytona-beach/2) ?

[dougskiles]

Maybe I'm desensitized, but I've never been in fear for my safety at Hemming Plaza.

Same here.  I walk right through the crowd, smile, say hello and go on my way.  Not a big deal really.

[thelakelander]

I actually like the people there playing chest and stuff.  It adds a little life to an otherwise pretty dead downtown environment.  I'm also opposed to any plan that takes away more amenities like benches from any public space.  In fact, I'd like to see more amenities (like public restrooms, playground equipment and perhaps retail kiosks) installed in the space to give it more life.  My suggestion to those who believe the homeless in Hemming are a huge problem, is to take a visit to San Diego.  It's one of the most desired urban tourism spots in the country and there are homeless people everywhere.  They just happen to mix in with the rest of the people on the street.

Vagrants hanging out in downtown San Diego

[JamesD]

I also agree that the homeless population doesn't bother me either. I was eating lunch down at the plaza on thursday and I must say I didnt feel uncomforable? I like seeing people enjoying themselves with chess,checkers,card games etc.. Homeless or not?

[peestandingup]

Downtown isn't the cushy manicured suburbs. I honestly think that's where a lot of this backwards line of thinking comes from. And also trying to make downtown appeal to suburbanites is backwards too. Yeah sure, you want visitors from those areas hanging out in downtown too as much as possible in a safe friendly environment. But downtown needs RESIDENTS more than anything. And I can assure you, a couple homeless people hanging out playing chess in a park isn't what's kept downtown's residential numbers at a standstill for decades. You get some actual foot traffic & residents in a vibrant core, and suddenly that issue isn't as much of an issue. Its only an issue now because downtown is so void.

Its just a dumb argument. There's homeless in every vibrant city, and although its a problem, its not keeping those cities down. So Jacksonville's leaders are gonna use this excuse now? And it is an excuse. You could run out every homeless person on a rail & downtown would still suffer from the same lack of vision, crappy policies & boneheaded leadership. This is why downtown suffers. From the people pulling the strings not knowing WTF they're talking about & not even wanting to explore that they might indeed not know WTF they're talking about.

P.S. Speaking of the guys playing chess/checkers. How do they know they're homeless?? Honest question. Because all I've ever seen there is a bunch of old men playing games at the tables, some bikes gathered around, and some other unkempt looking people. Does people = vagrants to this town? It would certainly seem to (see: why they took out the bus stops on Main in Springfield). Anyways, if they are, its not not exactly the "zombie homeless" lookers that I've seen in other cities with cardboard boxes & sleeping bags. Is it just because there's people there that don't look all mid to upper class white bread??

Not trying to turn this into a racial thing, but it just strikes me as odd. To listen to these guys complain, you'd think its "night of the living homeless" down there. "Chaaaaaaange" <See what I did there?? I used "change" instead of "brains".

[ChriswUfGator]

Lol, South Park actually did a Night of the Living Homeless a couple years back, Stephen posted the video on one of these threads somewhere.

[Jason]

The homeless don't hurt St. Augustine's tourism at all either. 

Also, the nightlife in St. A is starting to improve drastically. 

[thelakelander]

Cut and Pasted meeting minutes regarding Hemming Park:

October 3, 2011
3 p.m.

Noticed Meeting Minutes â€" CM Lee and CM Lumb re: Hemming Plaza access

Date and Time of meeting: 11 a.m. Wednesday September 28, 2011.

Location: St. James Building, Conference Room “A”, 4th Floor, City Hall, 117 West Duval Street, Jacksonville, Florida 32202

In Attendance: CM E. Denise Lee, CM Robin Lumb, CM Redman, CM Brown, Cindy Funkhouser, Dir. Sulzbacher Center; Dawn Gilman, director Emergency Services for the Homeless Coalition; Jerry Bass, Allied Veterans; Marv Kramer, POL Epidemiolgy; Parker Hudson, GRS, Inc.; Faye Carter, citizen; Theresa O’Donnell, COJ/OSE; Jamie Hill, COJ/OSE; Vikki Wilkins, The UPS Store; Suzie Loving, Legislative Assistant; Dick Jackson, Pamela Elms, Downtown Vision; Chris Warren, Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce; Vonette Garver, Dalton Agency; Max Marbut, Daily Record; Ron Chamblin, Chamblin’s Uptown;  Amy Harrell, Downtown Vision; Paul Crawford, JEDC; Ava Barrett, Jacksonville Library; Donna Barrow, ECA; Scott Wilson, ECA; Jerry Moran, La Cena Ristorante; and Celeste Hicks, Sec. to President of City Council.

Meeting convened: 11:03 a.m.

Council Member Lumb convened the meeting saying that he and CM Lee discussed the state of Hemming Plaza and the frequency of commotion, loud profanity and a lack of usage by the general public due to an abundance of homeless spending the day in the park. But he was quick to state that it may not be solely a homeless problem. The current state of the park decreases the quality of life in downtown and has a detrimental effect on surrounding businesses.

Cindy Funkhouser:  Presented results of a survey conducted by the Sulzbacher Center Hope Team that measured usage of Hemming Plaza.  In the early morning (between 9-11 am), the majority of the people in Hemming Plaza, 72%, were homeless and 28% were housed. During the lunch hour 46% were homeless and 54% were housed. In the evening, 69% were housed and 31% were homeless. This study was done in October 2008 and she offered to do the survey again to see who is there when the park closes.
Vikki Wilkins:  The city has to find another Band Aid that is cost effective and will get us results immediately.  She suggests making it inconvenient for people to sit in the park all day long.  She complained of the panhandlers, especially during the weekend when the JSO is not there.  She suggested taking out the tables and chairs.  Reducing the number of people means less trash and less commotion.
She complained of the costs to the library and JSO to house and police the homeless in this area.  They have the right to be there but she suggested that the city can make it inconvenient by reducing tables and chairs and turn off the electricity in the outlets.

Jerry Moran:  He talked of his out of town restaurant guests questioning the number of homeless in the park and the adverse impression it makes when CEOs consider moving businesses to downtown Jacksonville.

Theresa O’Donnell: The Office of Special Events manages Metropolitan Park and Hemming Plaza.  In theory, any group wanting to do something in the park needs to get a permit through Special Events. More and more people are feeding in the park.  Many people are doing this without the permit.  She suggested outlawing feeding in the park.

Don Redman: Suggests that it is too easy to get permits.  Wants to stop permitting feeding in Hemming Park.

Eva Barrett: Doesn’t think that a Band Aid answer will fix this problem. Numbers dwindle in park because the homeless leave the park to go to the library.  These are not bad people, many are just misfortunate. Suggests forming a Homeless Coalition much like what exists in Lee County.  There, they have action plans that deal with how agencies can cooperate to assist the homeless.

   Cindy Funkhouser:  The reason that the homeless are in Hemming Plaza and the library is because there are 800 emergency shelter beds 1,400 people living on the street. Find a place during the day where people have access to a bathroom, to a shower, and to resources that can connect them to services to get them off the street.  A day center is the answer.
   A survey asked the homeless in Hemming Plaza “If there was a day center, would you use it?” The answer 95% answered yes.  Reason was bathrooms, shower and substance abuse counseling. 

   Robin Lumb: My concern is that they would go to the day center, take a shower, get reinvigorated and then head back down to Hemming Plaza.

   Jerry Moran offered doubts about the success of a day center saying: “Are you going to allow drinking, smoking, fighting, spitting, drug use at this day center? No. I wouldn’t go either if I was a bum.”

   Don Redman suggests using the old Armory as a possible day center.

E. Denise Lee: (arrives at 11:25 a.m.) Hopes that out of this meeting a small ad hoc committee would be formed to review the comments from citizens and business owners and research and come up with an answer to this problem.
   Government is not in the business of subsidizing everything, it shouldn’t be.
   She expressed her concerns about all-day card games and loud profanity.  The park is not suitable for families with young children. She stated that she isn’t against the homeless. She wants to come up with a solution to protect the taxpayers’ dollars.
   Questions: When was Hemming Park renovated, how much money was invested and was there a plan?
         Who is responsible for overseeing laws?
Notes that with all of the suggestions about putting money in revitalizing downtown, but there are problems to be addressed if that is going to work.

Fay Carter: Suggests moving all of the tables to Metropolitan Park. There are also bathroom facilities there. She sees this as a solution and not a Band Aid. Afraid we have such compassion for people that we become enablers.
                     
   Dawn Gilman: Programs exist at the shelters. On any given night there are 4,500 people in our area who are experiencing homelessness.  We have about 3,000 beds. Don’t want government want to come in, but already paying for these services in very inefficient ways.  Sheriff Rutherford said in a 12-month period the cost of housing arrested homeless the cost is just over $3 million. She did not have numbers for the numbers spent on the homeless in emergency room care.

   CM Reggie Brown: Spends considerable amount of time in the park.  Twice he has left car keys in door, people in the park have locked his car, and have taken the keys to the fourth floor to make sure he got them. The Armory is going to take money. We are going to look bad if we run these folks out of this park without offering them anything. That is the not the spirit we are in.  Let’s get aggressive about this, invest in the Armory and move this traffic.  These people have to be somewhere.
   Vikki Wilkins:  If you move the tables and chair down to Metro Park, that is a place where there are no businesses. There is no meter for them to lean on to panhandle people all day long.

   CM Reggie Brown: The way the shelters are set up, they feed at certain times.  So the homeless have to remain in the downtown area if they are going to participate in eating, they have to stay downtown. It is all about timing. CM Brown volunteers to work on the committee. Stresses that the rights of the homeless have to be remembered.

   CM Robin Lumb:  We have tiptoed around this issue for so long that we don’t have expectations of people to do not do the things that keeps them in this diminished state of living that they are in.

Jerry Bass: Allied Veterans began looking at homeless shelters when it was discovered that 6 out of every 10 homeless persons on the street is a veteran (national numbers).  Look outside of the downtown area. Purchased a 50-room facility on Atlantic Boulevard, 3½ acres of land.  It was formerly a nursing home. It will be accredited for 162 beds. Their main objective is serving veterans. If you don’t teach or train they won’t change. There will be drug and alcohol classes as well as employment training.  Main objective is to put these people back into society as a productive force in society.
   
   CM Lee: Two issues, the park itself, which is a city investment. And, two, the activities that are going on in the park.  This isn’t about the homeless. This meeting is about the park.  What is happening in the park is motivating the concern.  It is affecting businesses, workers. We don’t want to get confused and send the message that this is about the people in the park.  They just happen to be there. It is about the activities in the park.  It’s about the city’s obligation in the park.
   Recommend:
1) Investigate the legislation that created the park.
2) Is there enforcement? Who is responsible? Sheriff? Mayor? City Council?  What are the laws that govern the park?
This is not about throwing people out of the park.

It is about the Park.  Concerned those city employees don’t use the park to eat lunch.
Requests a General Council member be at the next meeting.
   If we enforce what is on the books, some of this will be taken care of.
   Investments adjacent to the park include the People Mover, Library, and City Hall. Certain things cannot happen within a certain distance of public building.
   Wants a list of homeless shelters near Hemming Plaza.
She suggested forming an ad hoc committee.  Wants to research how to best use the park, not remove the people. She would like to see homeless providers be on the committee. CMs Redman, Brown, Lumb and Lee would serve on the committee.  She wants business representatives (3), library representation, the, JEDC, and a liaison from mayor’s office.

CM Redman:  Talked to Mayor Brown about the issue and has shown interest in improving the park.

CM Lumb: Wants a Downtown Vision representative on the committee as well.

Jerry Moran: Been downtown 10 years on going problem not gotten any better.  He asked if the benches can immediately be removed.  He encouraged other businesses to remove benches and it solved vagrancy in front of businesses.  He suggested that people have to have a library card to enter the library and use the computers.

Theresa O’Donnell: Conversations have been had with the mayor.  Special Events handles permitting.  Public Works handles maintenance. There needs to be some solution.

Vikki Wilkins: She went to meetings for 2 years with little progress. Ron Barton (JEDC) was at a meeting and the next day signs were posted and sleeping in the park was illegal.  Sometimes the smallest move makes all of the difference. Suggests churches should give the food to Schulzbacher to feed the homeless rather than feed them in the downtown.

Ron Chamblin: Tables and the benches are a little over 100 seats; there are 1600 feet of ledges. Monday 30 people sitting on ledges.  If every 3 feet of ledges is a seat you have 533 seats.  You are suggesting moving only 20% of seating by removing the tables and chairs.

CM Lumb: If reduce the comfort of socializing you will reduce it somewhat.

CM Brown: I have lunch out there. Not just changing the lives of one particular group.  We are changing the lives of the way we live downtown. I want us to be mindful, that we do have citizens that work downtown. Retired come to meet downtown.  I can take you to a table where four retired people come to play chess every day. To shut off one population we are shutting off the rest of the world including those who are paying taxes.

CM Lumb (to Steven Rohan, Office General Council) â€" If we took out benches and seating, have we violated anyone’s Constitutional rights?
Rohan: The city can make kind of adjustments to its park system. It cannot restrict free speech.  It can develop its parks in any way it wishes or in whatever form it wishes.
CM Lumb: So there is nothing the city can do to restrict the swearing?
Rohan: There are ordinances and state laws that deal with that. The city can configure the park any way it wants.

Rohan: Suggests being careful about Sunshine law.

No date was set for the next meeting.

Meeting adjourned: at 12:17 p.m.

I must say, I like Councilman Brown's point of view on this discussion.  We won't improve the quality of downtown by removing public amenities.  Do that and you'll run off everybody.

[fieldafm]

When my father was a child, they had even more benches and tables than they do today.  It was the center of all bus transfers.  They even had a public restroom(which is still there today they just threw concrete over a portion of it to cover it up. 

Removing park benches, in a park, is not the answer.

And if you make the armory a day care center, you can also forever cement the promise of a Hogans Creek Greenway.  The area is already frought with homeless camps.


This is what Hemming Park used to look like, MORE amenities than today and less homeless. 




Lake Eola in Orlando has homeless hanging around... but you don't see Orlando ripping up the bandstand, playground and park benches.  What is the point of a park/public gathering space if there is nothing to do there? 

[Miss Fixit]

Fieldafm, I had the same reaction to Redmond's suggestion that the Armory become a day care center. 

Whose council district is the armory in?  Redmond's or Gaffney's? 

[peestandingup]

Some of those members seriously have no business being on any type of city council, especially in a city with a large population such as ours. It's like all they can do is put 2 & 2 together.

"Dur. I see them there homeless people sitting at tables & benches. Easy. Just remove tables & benches. Herp a durp."

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Based on the minutes, the only one(s) that seemed to be for leaving the amenities were the only one(s) that actually use them - go figure. 

NIMBY at it's finest. 

Why don't we remove all the traffic lights in Mandarin, I don't ever go there, and think of all the money the city could save in electricity.

[duvaldude08]

" Let's removing all the seating, that way the homeless will go away, and the working class downtown can sit on the curb and eat lunch." These people are dumb dumb. People go to park to sit down, play cards, read a book, enjoy the weather. NOT to walk through it!