Presidential address last night

[buckethead]

You know...I honestly thought that after the epic fail that was the stimulus, that ideas like "high government spending multipliers" would be banished back to the hell they came from. So much for that hope...

epic fail? 

Perhaps you have some data on how things would have been without the stimulus...do share please

do nothing.  that's right. let the markets recover on their own without government interference. (IT WAS GOVERMENT INTERFERENCE AND POLICIES THAT CONTRIBUTED MOST TO THE EPIC CRASH IN THE FIRST PLACE)

You can debate supply side and demand side but it has never been proven that governmental programs can direct the economy for the better. The economy arises from the energies of the millions of citizens working, saving, and investing. Most governmnetal actions get in the way of that process; many have unintended consequences, and all are based on rather complex unproven theories relying on faulty data.

One of the main reasons supply side economics can be beneficial is that it sometimes removes some of the burden of government from the backs of the participants. I think it would be better to argue for clearer objectives: encourage saving, reward investment, and limit the burden of taxation, regulation, reporting, and compliance. And never establish programs that reward bad behavior! Those are simple common sense rules and trump most all "economic theories."

Instead of trying to manipulate the people, and engineer abstract goals, the best economics would be to empower and liberate the people--enhance their opportunity to pursue their own prosperity and happiness.

No, it was government deregulation that contributed most to the EPIC crash: the repeal of the 1933 Glass-Steagall act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

I see meaningless right wing jargon all over your post:

- without government interference ( ie government is bad)

- government gets in the way (ie government is bad)

- unintended consequences (ie government is bad)

- unproven theories and faulty data (don't believe the scientists, government is bad)

- burden of government from the backs of participants ( government is bad)

- burden of taxation, regulation, reporting, and compliance (government is bad)

- common sense rules and trump most all "economic theories." (laisez faire, government is bad)

- establish programs that reward bad behavior (laisez faire, social programs are bad, government is bad)

- manipulate the people, and engineer abstract goals (laisez faire, government is bad)

So why pray tell, don't you rather live in a third world country with no "government interference"?

Let me tell you.........in countries with a strong safety net, entrepreneurship flourishes because entire families don't have to be subjected to excessive risk taking:



Using data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the United States has the lowest level of self-employment (except Luxembourg).

An important part of our national identity is built around the idea that â€" thanks to low taxes, limited
regulation, unfettered labor markets, and a national spirit of entrepreneurship â€" the United States
offers an environment for small business that is unmatched anywhere else in the world.

The international economic data, however, tell a different story about the state of U.S. small
business. By every measure of small-business employment, the United States has among the world’s
smallest small-business sectors (as a proportion of total national employment).

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/small-business-2009-08.pdf

Glass-Steagall was the one piece of legislation that could have prevented the boom/bust of the housing market. The causes were legion, however. Let us not forget Fannie/Freddie and the trillions in government (taxpayer) backing afforded to banksters.

The bad news: The horse has left the barn. It's useless to shut the gate now. companies/jobs/operations/assets have moved overseas. The "rich" have hedged their bets. US collapses... no worries. The term rich does not include Mr $400,000 annually or Mr $10M in assets. That is the middle class expected to carry the burden of government for the rest of the citizenry. Those guys own some hedge of their own hopefully, however.

We the paupers will need to be able to sell our goods and services to someone in the near future!

[Sigma]

I don't hate government and I believe in what the US used to stand for

me as well - what the US used to stand for - limited government, controlled by the people - a US that does not spend more than it takes in and the majority is self-reliant and does not depend on hand-outs and redistribution.

A US that perhaps pays attention to what is going on rather than obsessing over American Idol and True Blood.

Huh? The U.S. borrowed to finance the Revolutionary War, and has continued to borrow for pretty much everything since.

At what point in time did this country reflect what you're claiming it stands for? I don't get this revisionist history.

not at this rate

[Sigma]

When the wealthy and corporations control most of the money, there isn't enough to go around for everybody else to not need a hand out.

Every man for himself leads third world economies. 

the wealthy do not stuff it in mason jars and bury in the back yard.  they invest it where there is profit to be made - new businesses, etc.  which create jobs. 

[JeffreyS]

I know we want to say that either too much government interference or not enough caused the crash.  The truth is it was and is both.  Too much Government being willing to buy risky home loans encouraged bad loans.  Too little regulation allowed Wall Street, Mortgage Companies and Banks to commoditize and other wise package and hedge and on and on with practices detrimental to our countries people's success.  Too much tax incentive to move jobs overseas.  Too little tariffs on foreign goods. Too much stimulus money. Too little regulation on how the stimulus money should be used by those who accepted it.

It is not big government v small government it is about good government.  I don't like the argument that our government doesn't do a good job so we should relive them of responsibility.  If my son does a bad job taking the garbage out by spilling some or forgetting to put a bag back in the can.  I do not then say you will no longer take the trash out I demand better.  Let's demand better from our government.

[Dog Walker]

When the wealthy and corporations control most of the money, there isn't enough to go around for everybody else to not need a hand out.

Every man for himself leads third world economies. 

the wealthy do not stuff it in mason jars and bury in the back yard.  they invest it where there is profit to be made - new businesses, etc.  which create jobs. 

Sorry, wrong.  They are NOT investing it in new business.  They are speculating on various financial instruments in what is essentially a zero-sum game.  There are no wealth multipliers in their activities.  Do you buy reverse mortgage default swaps?

[Sigma]

DG you are picking out one thing to focus on. and a very risky financial scheme as well.

Do you know why venture capitalist require a 50% return?  because most of the time they lose.  But small companies with big ideas and innovation (who banks won't touch) are fueled by those evil rich who don't pay their fair share 

Right now - there are a lot of smaller investors at this moment on the sideline due to markets and a volatile economic climate.  but they are contantly looking for ways to invest - you and me included through mutual funds etc.

the longer the government tinkers with the economy - the longer its gonna take.  want a recovery? eliminate corporate taxes (the consumer pays it anyway) and get out of the way.  American investors and business people will take it from there. 

[ChriswUfGator]

DG you are picking out one thing to focus on. and a very risky financial scheme as well.

Do you know why venture capitalist require a 50% return?  because most of the time they lose.  But small companies with big ideas and innovation (who banks won't touch) are fueled by those evil rich who don't pay their fair share 

Right now - there are a lot of smaller investors at this moment on the sideline due to markets and a volatile economic climate.  but they are contantly looking for ways to invest - you and me included through mutual funds etc.

the longer the government tinkers with the economy - the longer its gonna take.  want a recovery? eliminate corporate taxes (the consumer pays it anyway) and get out of the way.  American investors and business people will take it from there. 

Yeah that rosy picture you're painting is like 1% of the financial services / investment market. The rest is pretty much as DogWalker is implying, much of it is simply parasitic behavior with no real benefit to anyone but the investor and the broker/manager.

[Garden guy]

When the wealthy and corporations control most of the money, there isn't enough to go around for everybody else to not need a hand out.

Every man for himself leads third world economies. 

the wealthy do not stuff it in mason jars and bury in the back yard.  they invest it where there is profit to be made - new businesses, etc.  which create jobs.

We have a hell of a lot more millionaires and billionaires after bush did his madness..ok..where are all of these jobs and inovation and investment at? Hmmmm?

[Sigma]

DG you are picking out one thing to focus on. and a very risky financial scheme as well.

Do you know why venture capitalist require a 50% return?  because most of the time they lose.  But small companies with big ideas and innovation (who banks won't touch) are fueled by those evil rich who don't pay their fair share 

Right now - there are a lot of smaller investors at this moment on the sideline due to markets and a volatile economic climate.  but they are contantly looking for ways to invest - you and me included through mutual funds etc.

the longer the government tinkers with the economy - the longer its gonna take.  want a recovery? eliminate corporate taxes (the consumer pays it anyway) and get out of the way.  American investors and business people will take it from there. 

Yeah that rosy picture you're painting is like 1% of the financial services / investment market. The rest is pretty much as DogWalker is implying, much of it is simply parasitic behavior with no real benefit to anyone but the investor and the broker/manager.

facts?

[Sigma]

When the wealthy and corporations control most of the money, there isn't enough to go around for everybody else to not need a hand out.

Every man for himself leads third world economies. 

the wealthy do not stuff it in mason jars and bury in the back yard.  they invest it where there is profit to be made - new businesses, etc.  which create jobs.

We have a hell of a lot more millionaires and billionaires after bush did his madness..ok..where are all of these jobs and inovation and investment at? Hmmmm?

faye, is that you?

[avs]

When the wealthy and corporations control most of the money, there isn't enough to go around for everybody else to not need a hand out.

Every man for himself leads third world economies. 

the wealthy do not stuff it in mason jars and bury in the back yard.  they invest it where there is profit to be made - new businesses, etc.  which create jobs.

We have a hell of a lot more millionaires and billionaires after bush did his madness..ok..where are all of these jobs and inovation and investment at? Hmmmm?

faye, is that you?

cmon sigma, facts

[JeffreyS]

DG you are picking out one thing to focus on. and a very risky financial scheme as well.

Do you know why venture capitalist require a 50% return?  because most of the time they lose.  But small companies with big ideas and innovation (who banks won't touch) are fueled by those evil rich who don't pay their fair share 

Right now - there are a lot of smaller investors at this moment on the sideline due to markets and a volatile economic climate.  but they are contantly looking for ways to invest - you and me included through mutual funds etc.

the longer the government tinkers with the economy - the longer its gonna take.  want a recovery? eliminate corporate taxes (the consumer pays it anyway) and get out of the way.  American investors and business people will take it from there. 

The large corporation effectively pay about zero in taxes.  G.E. seems to make money from being taxed.  There is no bang for the buck in cutting taxes.  We have a relatively high corporate tax rate but we also have a million and one ways for large corporations to use loopholes and incentives to avoid them.

By all means lower the corporate tax rate but put in a floor of 10% no matter what.

[Sigma]

I understand where you are coming from Jeffrey I liked that preivious post you made.  Point is though that corp will pass along the taxes to the consumer, regardless of rate. 

[JeffreyS]

I agree but I think as long as they aren't to high that circle of life process with taxes is needed.  They will pass them along kinda creates a pseudo fair tax.

[Timkin]

I think if we default, that John Boehner and the house republicans should probably be arrested and tried for treason.

The best suggestion i've heard all year...

I ll take it one step further. Fire them , PERIOD.